*** SS Marine Aquarium 2.0 Announced! ***

feldon34 · 03-06-2003, 11:22 AM

This is the discussion thread for the
SereneScreen Marine Aquarium 2.0 announcement.

Jim Sachs · 03-06-2003, 12:12 PM

5 of the fish in the 2.0 version of the Aquarium were created by Prolific. We have reached an understanding that the artist will be listed for each fish in the "Fish-picker" section of the Settings screen. That way, if you see something that doesn't quite look like my work, you will see who the artist was. Any fish done by Prolific must first be approved by me, but the chances are I would have done them differently.

ROBinLA · 03-06-2003, 02:20 PM

That's great! When will it be available?
Rob

feldon34 · 03-06-2003, 02:23 PM

2-3 weeks hopefully.

kcs · 03-06-2003, 02:30 PM

Great News this one and such a short time after the MAT.

Is this version 2 going to be free (for the ones having bought the .99? version) or how much will we be charged for this upgrade?

Also will we have the same problem (frame rate reduced by 50%) as in the MAT?

(curious to see the emperator angel swim arount the tank!)

Christian

Digital Lungfish · 03-06-2003, 02:41 PM

Any fish done by Prolific must first be approved by me, but the chances are I would have done them differently.

Well, I'll give you this Jim, you're 100% honest about how these new "non-Jim" fish make you feel.

Derrek · 03-06-2003, 02:43 PM

I wonder what happened to only Jim doing the fish?

feldon34 · 03-06-2003, 02:51 PM

Well, look at that wall calendar.

No updates to the Marine Aquarium in 1 year and 2 weeks.

And being extremely optimistic, I don't think Jim will be doing more fish for the Marine Aquarium until 2004.

As long as he has approval on the fish, why not? I hope he is being stringent about the quality though. It's hard to tell from the snapshots. As soon as I get a test version, I will post a scathingly-honest review.

Derrek · 03-06-2003, 03:01 PM

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone is excited about the new version plus the five new fish, me for one. Its been along time since anything really new and now we got MAT, the goldfish, and now version 2.0 of MA. Its really been a treat. It seems like I've read before that it only takes a day to do a fish, why would it be not until 2004 for Jim to make any new fish? I've always considered Jim an artist first, programmer second, now we have some programmer at prolific designing fish. It seems in the past Jim was agaisnt anyone else making fish for him and now this. I guess I was just alittle shocked to hear he wasn't making the fish.

Kindof on a side note, is this screensaver project that Jim started taking longer than he expected? I know there was talks of a butterfly and a bird screensaver but if it takes as long to do those as it did to do this MA and freshwater screensaver he might not never get to his movie.

Jim Sachs · 03-06-2003, 03:19 PM

Ken is an artist at Prolific, not a programmer.

Yes, the screensavers are taking much longer than I had hoped.

Derrek · 03-06-2003, 03:23 PM

When you started this project what kind of time frame were you thinking of?

feldon34 · 03-06-2003, 03:56 PM

If Jim or Prolific start doing fish with the new tools, I can guarantee you it will take more than 1 day because of the new possibilities.

150 vertices per fish limit? Gone
fin structure cannot deviate significantly from current fish without rewriting the code? Gone
new fish require new programming, for instance the big wavy fins on the triggerfishes? Gone

And now things like realistic physics (a Wimplefish with a long, flowing banner that moves properly as the fish turns or darts off in a different direction), unusual fish shapes, individual fish behaviors, etc. are possible. Again I have not seen the new tools so I am extrapolating from what I've been told, but I'd imagine that someone could sit there for a week twiddling knobs and being creative and still not be 100% happy with the fish they created.

These 5 new fish do not use the new tools yet.

Derrek said:
I've always considered Jim an artist first, programmer second, now we have some programmer at prolific designing fish.

This is incorrect, and this is why I am going to write a philosophy statement about Prolific. Prolific is not 16 programmers. It is mostly artists and a few programmers. I think the artists at Prolific making the Goldfish Aquarium, FlagPride, etc. would take great offense at the implication that they are not artists.

As for Jim being an artist first and a programmer second, he's not willing to let go of the programmer element one bit. Please look at the chat logs of Feb 15th. Jim has spent the last months programming and studying code for the Freshwater Aquarium, not creating art.

Derrek said:
It seems in the past Jim was agaisnt anyone else making fish for him and now this. I guess I was just alittle shocked to hear he wasn't making the fish.

I am quickly learning that Jim's philosophies are expressed more strongly here on the forum than is necessarily the case.

Jim has encouraged his long-time friends at Prolific -- Reichart and Will -- to create other products and contribute to the Aquarium. Jim does not want "developer of the best damn aquarium ever" engraved on his tombstone. He wants to be known for his CG(I) movie. Yes, Jim has incredibly high standards for himself and is very guarded about his work after being screwed by so many companies over the years. But in the end, the Aquarium, Butterfly Garden, etc. are revenue streams to pay to make the movie.

Back in December 2000 when I first got involved in the Aquarium fan site, Jim said that he thought a developer's kit for making fish could be a possibility. Then he mentioned that Prolific would handle this if such a thing happened. A few months ago, Jim updated his personal website with these comments:

Next in the SereneScreen Series will be a Freshwater Tank, but that doesn't mean that the Marine Aquarium won't be updated. All SereneScreen environments will be ongoing projects, and many of the enhancements will be free to all registered users. For example, the Marine Aquarium will gain a 3D background, the ability to feed the fish, and the fish will be given different behavior based on species type. There will also be "Creature Paks" available for a small extra charge which will contain unusual or difficult-to-design animals.

These things will all take time. I worked alone in building the Marine Aquarium, but now that Prolific Publishing is involved, I have the opportunity to work with other talented artists and programmers to speed up the creative process. Nevertheless, I will remain solely responsible for maintaining the quality and realism of the SereneScreen brand.

-Jim Sachs

I guess no matter what Jim does, it will be considered "selling out" if he has other people help him.

Derrek said:
Kindof on a side note, is this screensaver project that Jim started taking longer than he expected?

In February 2002, Jim was quoted as saying that he thinks the Freshwater Aquarium would take "about 45 days".

379 days and counting...

Derrek said:
I know there was talks of a butterfly and a bird screensaver but if it takes as long to do those as it did to do this MA and freshwater screensaver he might not never get to his movie.

The latest schedule (to quote Jim):
Freshwater Aquarium with 5-7 fish
3D background for Marine Aquarium
Creature Pack 1 for Marine Aquarium
Butterfly Garden
expire from exhaustion

Jim Sachs · 03-06-2003, 04:58 PM

Derrek - One per year for 5 years.

Ralph · 03-06-2003, 06:34 PM

I am confused........ here we have an announcement, of what? Some upcoming product? Can I see it? Where is the link to D/L? Seems there is a long list of "coming soon" software. Am I missing something?
Ralph

Jav400 · 03-06-2003, 06:54 PM

Ralph,

No you are not missing anything yet. But the next few months should make everyone very happy, ( and astounded ).

feldon34 · 03-06-2003, 10:45 PM

I've cleaned up the announcement message some more.

feldon34 · 03-07-2003, 01:14 AM

An product announcement is... an announcement.

Not to be confused with a product release.

Serious, if it were a product release, you would've gotten an e-mail.

Digital Lungfish · 03-07-2003, 01:43 AM

Definitely great news all around!!! I'm curious about something though. Why was the Queen Angel redesigned yet again? I think the current incarnation is by far THE closest thing to a real Queen.

This new one does look nice, but to me it looks less like a Queen than any of the others before it. Just curious and feeling a little disappointed that I'll be losing one of the fish I happen to really like.

feldon34 · 03-07-2003, 03:25 AM

In a poll with 900 people voting, the brown Queen Angel was ranked dead last. That's 21st place out of 21 fish. But don't let that take away from it being one of your favorite fish.

I foresee a day when we can choose amongst the 3-4 versions.

Yellow Tang · 03-07-2003, 03:40 AM

Wow, absolutely great news here! The new fishies are awsome, especially the new (old?) Queen Angel! Can't wait to see it in the aquarium.

DL,
you don't loose a fish, you can always use an older version, like I, use the old widescreen version (.99K) because of the Queen Angel and the faster movements of the fishes. Looks more real to me, hopefully the wider speed range comes back in a future version, somewhen...

03-06-2003, 11:22 AM	#1
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	This is the discussion thread for the SereneScreen Marine Aquarium 2.0 announcement. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 03-06-2003 at 01:44 PM.

03-06-2003, 12:12 PM	#2
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	5 of the fish in the 2.0 version of the Aquarium were created by Prolific. We have reached an understanding that the artist will be listed for each fish in the "Fish-picker" section of the Settings screen. That way, if you see something that doesn't quite look like my work, you will see who the artist was. Any fish done by Prolific must first be approved by me, but the chances are I would have done them differently. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-06-2003, 02:23 PM	#4
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	2-3 weeks hopefully. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-06-2003, 02:30 PM	#5
kcs Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Brussels - Belgium Posts: 8	V2 Great News this one and such a short time after the MAT. Is this version 2 going to be free (for the ones having bought the .99? version) or how much will we be charged for this upgrade? Also will we have the same problem (frame rate reduced by 50%) as in the MAT? (curious to see the emperator angel swim arount the tank!) Christian

03-06-2003, 02:41 PM	#6
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	Any fish done by Prolific must first be approved by me, but the chances are I would have done them differently. Well, I'll give you this Jim, you're 100% honest about how these new "non-Jim" fish make you feel. Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...

03-06-2003, 02:20 PM	#3
ROBinLA Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 101	That's great! When will it be available? Rob

03-06-2003, 02:43 PM	#7
Derrek Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 186	I wonder what happened to only Jim doing the fish?

03-06-2003, 02:51 PM	#8
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Well, look at that wall calendar. No updates to the Marine Aquarium in 1 year and 2 weeks. And being extremely optimistic, I don't think Jim will be doing more fish for the Marine Aquarium until 2004. As long as he has approval on the fish, why not? I hope he is being stringent about the quality though. It's hard to tell from the snapshots. As soon as I get a test version, I will post a scathingly-honest review. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-06-2003, 03:01 PM	#9
Derrek Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 186	Don't get me wrong, I think everyone is excited about the new version plus the five new fish, me for one. Its been along time since anything really new and now we got MAT, the goldfish, and now version 2.0 of MA. Its really been a treat. It seems like I've read before that it only takes a day to do a fish, why would it be not until 2004 for Jim to make any new fish? I've always considered Jim an artist first, programmer second, now we have some programmer at prolific designing fish. It seems in the past Jim was agaisnt anyone else making fish for him and now this. I guess I was just alittle shocked to hear he wasn't making the fish. Kindof on a side note, is this screensaver project that Jim started taking longer than he expected? I know there was talks of a butterfly and a bird screensaver but if it takes as long to do those as it did to do this MA and freshwater screensaver he might not never get to his movie.

03-06-2003, 03:19 PM	#10
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Ken is an artist at Prolific, not a programmer. Yes, the screensavers are taking much longer than I had hoped. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-06-2003, 03:23 PM	#11
Derrek Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 186	When you started this project what kind of time frame were you thinking of?

03-06-2003, 03:56 PM	#12
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	If Jim or Prolific start doing fish with the new tools, I can guarantee you it will take more than 1 day because of the new possibilities. 150 vertices per fish limit? Gone fin structure cannot deviate significantly from current fish without rewriting the code? Gone new fish require new programming, for instance the big wavy fins on the triggerfishes? Gone And now things like realistic physics (a Wimplefish with a long, flowing banner that moves properly as the fish turns or darts off in a different direction), unusual fish shapes, individual fish behaviors, etc. are possible. Again I have not seen the new tools so I am extrapolating from what I've been told, but I'd imagine that someone could sit there for a week twiddling knobs and being creative and still not be 100% happy with the fish they created. These 5 new fish do not use the new tools yet. Derrek said: I've always considered Jim an artist first, programmer second, now we have some programmer at prolific designing fish. This is incorrect, and this is why I am going to write a philosophy statement about Prolific. Prolific is not 16 programmers. It is mostly artists and a few programmers. I think the artists at Prolific making the Goldfish Aquarium, FlagPride, etc. would take great offense at the implication that they are not artists. As for Jim being an artist first and a programmer second, he's not willing to let go of the programmer element one bit. Please look at the chat logs of Feb 15th. Jim has spent the last months programming and studying code for the Freshwater Aquarium, not creating art. Derrek said: It seems in the past Jim was agaisnt anyone else making fish for him and now this. I guess I was just alittle shocked to hear he wasn't making the fish. I am quickly learning that Jim's philosophies are expressed more strongly here on the forum than is necessarily the case. Jim has encouraged his long-time friends at Prolific -- Reichart and Will -- to create other products and contribute to the Aquarium. Jim does not want "developer of the best damn aquarium ever" engraved on his tombstone. He wants to be known for his CG(I) movie. Yes, Jim has incredibly high standards for himself and is very guarded about his work after being screwed by so many companies over the years. But in the end, the Aquarium, Butterfly Garden, etc. are revenue streams to pay to make the movie. Back in December 2000 when I first got involved in the Aquarium fan site, Jim said that he thought a developer's kit for making fish could be a possibility. Then he mentioned that Prolific would handle this if such a thing happened. A few months ago, Jim updated his personal website with these comments: Next in the SereneScreen Series will be a Freshwater Tank, but that doesn't mean that the Marine Aquarium won't be updated. All SereneScreen environments will be ongoing projects, and many of the enhancements will be free to all registered users. For example, the Marine Aquarium will gain a 3D background, the ability to feed the fish, and the fish will be given different behavior based on species type. There will also be "Creature Paks" available for a small extra charge which will contain unusual or difficult-to-design animals. These things will all take time. I worked alone in building the Marine Aquarium, but now that Prolific Publishing is involved, I have the opportunity to work with other talented artists and programmers to speed up the creative process. Nevertheless, I will remain solely responsible for maintaining the quality and realism of the SereneScreen brand. -Jim Sachs I guess no matter what Jim does, it will be considered "selling out" if he has other people help him. Derrek said: Kindof on a side note, is this screensaver project that Jim started taking longer than he expected? In February 2002, Jim was quoted as saying that he thinks the Freshwater Aquarium would take "about 45 days". 379 days and counting... Derrek said: I know there was talks of a butterfly and a bird screensaver but if it takes as long to do those as it did to do this MA and freshwater screensaver he might not never get to his movie. The latest schedule (to quote Jim): Freshwater Aquarium with 5-7 fish 3D background for Marine Aquarium Creature Pack 1 for Marine Aquarium Butterfly Garden expire from exhaustion "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-06-2003, 04:58 PM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Derrek - One per year for 5 years. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-06-2003, 06:34 PM	#14
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,454	Confused I am confused........ here we have an announcement, of what? Some upcoming product? Can I see it? Where is the link to D/L? Seems there is a long list of "coming soon" software. Am I missing something? Ralph

03-06-2003, 06:54 PM	#15
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Ralph, No you are not missing anything yet. But the next few months should make everyone very happy, ( and astounded ). Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

03-06-2003, 10:45 PM	#16
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	I've cleaned up the announcement message some more. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-07-2003, 01:14 AM	#17
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	An product announcement is... an announcement. Not to be confused with a product release. Serious, if it were a product release, you would've gotten an e-mail. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-07-2003, 01:43 AM	#18
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	Definitely great news all around!!! I'm curious about something though. Why was the Queen Angel redesigned yet again? I think the current incarnation is by far THE closest thing to a real Queen. This new one does look nice, but to me it looks less like a Queen than any of the others before it. Just curious and feeling a little disappointed that I'll be losing one of the fish I happen to really like. Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...

03-07-2003, 03:25 AM	#19
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	In a poll with 900 people voting, the brown Queen Angel was ranked dead last. That's 21st place out of 21 fish. But don't let that take away from it being one of your favorite fish. I foresee a day when we can choose amongst the 3-4 versions. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-07-2003, 03:40 AM	#20
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	Wow, absolutely great news here! The new fishies are awsome, especially the new (old?) Queen Angel! Can't wait to see it in the aquarium. DL, you don't loose a fish, you can always use an older version, like I, use the old widescreen version (.99K) because of the Queen Angel and the faster movements of the fishes. Looks more real to me, hopefully the wider speed range comes back in a future version, somewhen...