* Lionfish Questions *

Cefalo · 02-21-2002, 04:04 AM

I wait something more for the Lionfish.
I think lateral pins are not natural, cause they seems to move on a same plane, and they have no thickness.
What do u think?

Socrates · 02-21-2002, 04:19 AM

It's a matter of the limits of video cards.

The geometry for fully independent rounded spines would be too much.

Cefalo · 02-21-2002, 04:25 AM

There's a need of a super deluxe version for those who have enthusiastic video cards as Geforce 2,3,4 ATi Radeon etc...

Tiny Turtle · 02-21-2002, 04:41 AM

There has been discussions about that several times before. Jim does not appear too thrilled with the prospect of maintainging several versions though.

Cefalo · 02-21-2002, 08:40 AM

The problem is that IMHO upper spines are ok, but lateral seems unnatural!!

PigsOnTheWing · 02-21-2002, 09:44 AM

Overall, the Lionfish (anyone know why the "F" was incorrectly capitalized in the dialog box?) is incredible! I have no problem with the spines, myself. I agree, the lateral spines could stand to move more independently, but I can live with them. The eye movement looks a bit too jerky, though. Also, I owned a Lionfish for a couple of years, and while it was quite a long time ago (about 15 years), I don't remember him opening and closing his mouth as often as this one does. What I do remember is that he quite often liked to hang upside down like a bat along the rocks and coral. I've seen the Lionfishes at Sea World and Epcot's Living Seas pavilion doing the same thing. Is this kind of behavior something we might see in a future version of the SereneScreen Aquarium?

Looking forward to the widescreen version next week!

Keep up the great work, Mr. Sachs!

Jim Sachs · 02-21-2002, 09:55 AM

Cefalo -

What frame rate are you getting?

Cefalo · 02-21-2002, 10:01 AM

Jim

85 fps
with a Geforce2 ASUS V7700 TI64 Mb, Athlon XP 1600+, at 1024*768

PigsOnTheWing · 02-21-2002, 10:25 AM

> What frame rate are you getting?

I know this question wasn't directed at me...but I'm running the Aquarium at 1920 x 1200 on a 24" widescreen monitor...and I'm getting about 72-73 fps. Hardware is "only" an 800MHz PII with a GeForce 2 video card. Would I be correct in assuming that a 1920 x 1200 tank consumes more resources than ones with more common resolutions such as 1280 x 1024? Looks like I've got more than enough fps...so bring on the detail!

Just checked all available resolutions (all set to 16 bit color)...

1920 x 1200 ... 73 fps
1600 x 1200 ... 77 fps
1280 x 1024 ... 86 fps
1152 x 864 ... 100 fps
1024 x 768 ... 101 fps
800 x 600 ... 146 fps
640 x 480 ... 150 fps

Jim Sachs · 02-21-2002, 10:45 AM

The reason I asked about frame rate is that the side fins of the Lionfish would look less "floppy" on faster machines. You might want to turn on "Limit frame rate to 60".

Here's why: All the other fish have a single-plane polygon for each side fin, but the side fins of the Lionfish have many joints in them. There is a lag built in so that as the base of the fin moves, the second joint moves to the angle that the base was about 10 frames ago. The third joint moves to the angle that the base was about 20 frames ago, and the tips move to where the base was about 30 frames ago. In addition, the middle part of the fin also lags behind the top and bottom. On extremely fast machines it's possible that this can happen so fast that the fins appear to be flat.

Jim Sachs · 02-21-2002, 10:48 AM

Pigs -

Your widescreen setup would only use more resources if you are using the widescreen version of the Aquarium, because it uses more texture ram (but not much).

Cefalo · 02-21-2002, 10:49 AM

....in fact it seems so.
But the movement of the upper spines is perfect!

Jim Sachs · 02-21-2002, 11:10 AM

The movement of the upper spines is totally different, because they don't have to all move together to propel the fish.

As with everything in the Aquarium, the Lionfish movement will be improved as I get new ideas on how to do it. There just comes a point when I've just got to release something before the fans storm the castle.

All the fish movements will be completely re-done when I finish the 3D background.

Cefalo · 02-21-2002, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
All the fish movements will be completely re-done when I finish the 3D background.

Please do not touch Percula Clownfish!!! IS PERFECT!!!!! You can't improve the perfection!

Jim Sachs · 02-21-2002, 11:24 AM

Actually, the Percula has drawn the most complaints. I have never been happy with its movement and I re-did the bending points for this release. When its companion sea anemone is done, the Percula movement will really need to be changed.

feldon34 · 02-21-2002, 12:24 PM

A percula clownfish is supposed to waddle, not move very often, and hang around its host anemone.

Yellow Tang · 02-21-2002, 12:56 PM

Yes Jim, I have noticed a distinct difference between 25fps (old matrox G200 card) and 60fps in the movement of the side-fins. This looks much better with 25fps. Also the mouth-open-feature is different, approx. every 3 seconds with 60fps, with 25fps much more seldom, oh no, it's just a difference in speed, when he opens his mouth (it is a male, or?).
But hey, the Lionfish looks great at all fps!

Jim Sachs · 02-21-2002, 01:11 PM

Very disappointed to see that this has been promoted to a 'sticky' topic at the top of the list. Makes me wonder why I even do this.

feldon34 · 02-21-2002, 01:16 PM

Jim, I have changed it to Lionfish Questions. I pretty much knew that were would be a small group upset that it's a flat fin instead of spines, even if spines would have ruled out all but the fastest video cards.

People have gotten spoiled with the realism and the Lionfish had to take steps to work well on all cards.

The majority here are overjoyed at your efforts, otherwise you wouldn't have people all around you in the chat and on the forum expressing how happy they are with what you've done!

Please see this for what it is, a few people who had hoped the Lionfish would be impeccible.

Jroztan · 02-21-2002, 01:30 PM

Jim, There is always some critics out there on what you do but most importantly, take it as an opinion cause there is much more ppl out there especially me who really do love your LionFish whether is is "that spine" or "this fin" or whatever, IMHO, i love ur LionFish, but i dislike it big round eye. hehe.

02-21-2002, 04:04 AM	#1
Cefalo Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Genoa, Italy Posts: 12	As i said in chat I wait something more for the Lionfish. I think lateral pins are not natural, cause they seems to move on a same plane, and they have no thickness. What do u think?

02-21-2002, 04:19 AM	#2
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	It's a matter of the limits of video cards. The geometry for fully independent rounded spines would be too much. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

02-21-2002, 04:25 AM	#3
Cefalo Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Genoa, Italy Posts: 12	Geforce Users??? There's a need of a super deluxe version for those who have enthusiastic video cards as Geforce 2,3,4 ATi Radeon etc...

02-21-2002, 08:40 AM	#5
Cefalo Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Genoa, Italy Posts: 12	Lateral Spines The problem is that IMHO upper spines are ok, but lateral seems unnatural!!

02-21-2002, 09:44 AM	#6
PigsOnTheWing Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Celebration, FL Posts: 12	Overall, the Lionfish (anyone know why the "F" was incorrectly capitalized in the dialog box?) is incredible! I have no problem with the spines, myself. I agree, the lateral spines could stand to move more independently, but I can live with them. The eye movement looks a bit too jerky, though. Also, I owned a Lionfish for a couple of years, and while it was quite a long time ago (about 15 years), I don't remember him opening and closing his mouth as often as this one does. What I do remember is that he quite often liked to hang upside down like a bat along the rocks and coral. I've seen the Lionfishes at Sea World and Epcot's Living Seas pavilion doing the same thing. Is this kind of behavior something we might see in a future version of the SereneScreen Aquarium? Looking forward to the widescreen version next week! Keep up the great work, Mr. Sachs! Last edited by PigsOnTheWing; 02-21-2002 at 09:59 AM.

02-21-2002, 04:41 AM	#4
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	There has been discussions about that several times before. Jim does not appear too thrilled with the prospect of maintainging several versions though.

02-21-2002, 09:55 AM	#7
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Cefalo - What frame rate are you getting? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-21-2002, 10:01 AM	#8
Cefalo Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Genoa, Italy Posts: 12	Frame Rate Jim 85 fps with a Geforce2 ASUS V7700 TI64 Mb, Athlon XP 1600+, at 1024768 Last edited by Cefalo; 02-21-2002 at 10:05 AM.*

02-21-2002, 10:25 AM	#9
PigsOnTheWing Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Celebration, FL Posts: 12	> What frame rate are you getting? I know this question wasn't directed at me...but I'm running the Aquarium at 1920 x 1200 on a 24" widescreen monitor...and I'm getting about 72-73 fps. Hardware is "only" an 800MHz PII with a GeForce 2 video card. Would I be correct in assuming that a 1920 x 1200 tank consumes more resources than ones with more common resolutions such as 1280 x 1024? Looks like I've got more than enough fps...so bring on the detail! Just checked all available resolutions (all set to 16 bit color)... 1920 x 1200 ... 73 fps 1600 x 1200 ... 77 fps 1280 x 1024 ... 86 fps 1152 x 864 ... 100 fps 1024 x 768 ... 101 fps 800 x 600 ... 146 fps 640 x 480 ... 150 fps Last edited by PigsOnTheWing; 02-21-2002 at 10:42 AM.

02-21-2002, 10:45 AM	#10
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	The reason I asked about frame rate is that the side fins of the Lionfish would look less "floppy" on faster machines. You might want to turn on "Limit frame rate to 60". Here's why: All the other fish have a single-plane polygon for each side fin, but the side fins of the Lionfish have many joints in them. There is a lag built in so that as the base of the fin moves, the second joint moves to the angle that the base was about 10 frames ago. The third joint moves to the angle that the base was about 20 frames ago, and the tips move to where the base was about 30 frames ago. In addition, the middle part of the fin also lags behind the top and bottom. On extremely fast machines it's possible that this can happen so fast that the fins appear to be flat. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-21-2002, 10:48 AM	#11
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Pigs - Your widescreen setup would only use more resources if you are using the widescreen version of the Aquarium, because it uses more texture ram (but not much). Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-21-2002, 10:49 AM	#12
Cefalo Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Genoa, Italy Posts: 12	in fact... ....in fact it seems so. But the movement of the upper spines is perfect!

02-21-2002, 11:10 AM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	The movement of the upper spines is totally different, because they don't have to all move together to propel the fish. As with everything in the Aquarium, the Lionfish movement will be improved as I get new ideas on how to do it. There just comes a point when I've just got to release something before the fans storm the castle. All the fish movements will be completely re-done when I finish the 3D background. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 02-21-2002 at 11:14 AM.

02-21-2002, 11:19 AM	#14
Cefalo Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Genoa, Italy Posts: 12	Originally posted by Jim Sachs All the fish movements will be completely re-done when I finish the 3D background. Please do not touch Percula Clownfish!!! IS PERFECT!!!!! You can't improve the perfection!

02-21-2002, 11:24 AM	#15
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Actually, the Percula has drawn the most complaints. I have never been happy with its movement and I re-did the bending points for this release. When its companion sea anemone is done, the Percula movement will really need to be changed. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 02-21-2002 at 11:32 AM.

02-21-2002, 12:24 PM	#16
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	A percula clownfish is supposed to waddle, not move very often, and hang around its host anemone. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-21-2002, 12:56 PM	#17
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	Yes Jim, I have noticed a distinct difference between 25fps (old matrox G200 card) and 60fps in the movement of the side-fins. This looks much better with 25fps. Also the mouth-open-feature is different, approx. every 3 seconds with 60fps, with 25fps much more seldom, oh no, it's just a difference in speed, when he opens his mouth (it is a male, or?). But hey, the Lionfish looks great at all fps! Last edited by Yellow Tang; 02-21-2002 at 02:22 PM.

02-21-2002, 01:11 PM	#18
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Very disappointed to see that this has been promoted to a 'sticky' topic at the top of the list. Makes me wonder why I even do this. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-21-2002, 01:16 PM	#19
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Jim, I have changed it to Lionfish Questions. I pretty much knew that were would be a small group upset that it's a flat fin instead of spines, even if spines would have ruled out all but the fastest video cards. People have gotten spoiled with the realism and the Lionfish had to take steps to work well on all cards. The majority here are overjoyed at your efforts, otherwise you wouldn't have people all around you in the chat and on the forum expressing how happy they are with what you've done! Please see this for what it is, a few people who had hoped the Lionfish would be impeccible. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-21-2002, 01:30 PM	#20
Jroztan Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 19	Jim, There is always some critics out there on what you do but most importantly, take it as an opinion cause there is much more ppl out there especially me who really do love your LionFish whether is is "that spine" or "this fin" or whatever, IMHO, i love ur LionFish, but i dislike it big round eye. hehe. Jacky Tan WIWIWIG What I Want Is What I Get