New Graphics Card

Manymosi · 03-14-2003, 05:10 PM

Can somebody give me advice on buying a new graphics card?

I have an older system - Pentium I 200mmx, Win 98se, 80 mb ram,
Permedia 23d 8 mb card in a pci slot, 19" monitor. With this system I get 15 fps at
800x600. The cards I can get at my local Compusa are:
Asylum Geforce2 mx200 32mb $49
Asylum Geforce mx400 64mb $59
Nvidia TNT2 M64 32mb $69

Any thoughts on these cards? I realize I probably wont get 80 fps
with my old cpu, but even 30-40 would be awesome(even at 15fps its still a great screensaver).
I realize I can get these cheaper online but am not sure I want to wait.

feldon34 · 03-14-2003, 05:46 PM

Those prices are $19, $23, and $40 more than you should pay for a GF2 MX200 32mb, a GF2 MX400 64mb (link) (what I use), or a TNT2 (link). The MX200 is a really bad deal because it is half the speed for $4 less!!

Also, more importantly, your computer does not have an AGP slot so none of those cards will work. You can either try to find a PCI video card (a different kind of connector) or start considering upgrading the PC.

I hate telling people that their computer is old, because I believe people should buy the amount of computer they NEED rather than the amount of computer everyone tells them they need.

But $400~500 would build you a blazing fast PC that I would be proud to call my own.

feldon34 · 03-14-2003, 05:49 PM

I'm really wishing I sold the Aquarium + Video Card bundles now. I've already been told there is no conflict-of-interest on Prolific's side.

A question to you and other people on this forum... How many of you or your friends would buy the Aquarium/Video Card bundle with very clear full-color instructions on how to install (I'd make these) directly from me for $60? The Aquarium would be the CD version of MA2 and the card would be a GeForce 2 MX400 64MB.

Manymosi · 03-14-2003, 08:19 PM

These three cards all come in a pci slot version, I double checked this.

But any preferences between these cards?
Do you think I would see any differences among them?
What is your guess as to the frame rate I would see?

NewEgg has the MX400 for $55. I guess pci cards are just more expensive.

feldon34 · 03-15-2003, 12:07 AM

These three cards all come in a pci slot version, I double checked this.

I can try to find you more online prices or even some prices in Michigan for PCI video cards if you wish. It is getting very hard to get 3D-capable PCI video cards, as AGP is now 6 years old (a long time in computer terms).

The price on that TnT Riva 2 is astronomical considering it came out 3 years before the GeForce 2 MX cards.

But any preferences between these cards?
Do you think I would see any differences among them?
What is your guess as to the frame rate I would see?

Honestly, all 3 cards should generate ~50-70fps of animation at 1024x768. But the faster of the 3 cards is definately the MX400.

The nVidia Line (ranked by performance rather than chronology):

TnT Vanta
TnT Riva
TnT Riva 2
GeForce
GeForce 2 MX200
GeForce 256
GeForce 2 MX400
GeForce 2
GeForce 2 GTS
GeForce 4 MX440 (the product numbering here is screwy)
GeForce 3
GeForce 4 Ti
GeForce FX (5x00)

A TnT Riva 2 is roughly 1/4th the speed of a GeForce 2 MX400.
A GeForce 2 MX200 is a bandwidth-strangled MX400.

Here's a good benchmark... (the benchmark is much more demanding hardware-wise than the Aquarium):
http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/...charts-01.html

As for what I recommend, either of the 3 cards would be fine for your present computer. But should you buy a card today that will be obsolete if you upgrade your PC in 6-12 months? Nobody's saying you need to upgrade, only that if you are considering it, I would wait and then buy 'optimal' hardware vs. buying a 'band-aid' solution now.

NewEgg has the MX400 for $55. I guess pci cards are just more expensive.

I just looked on Pricewatch and all the MX400 PCI cards run $55. Ouch!

{EDIT: I tried to give you links to www.pricewatch.com but they have very unfriendly URLs, so search there for

GeForce 2 MX400 PCI
or
TnT Riva 2 PCI
}

There is no question that the migration from ISA to VLB to PCI to AGP for video cards has been annoying.

Jav400 · 03-15-2003, 03:11 AM

Whaaaaat? Surely you didn't Morgan. Can I believe my eyes? **inside joke here

Manymosi · 03-15-2003, 05:16 AM

Thanks feldon, that's exactly the info I was looking for. Now I can make an informed decision.
One more question, will the slowness of my CPU have much of an effect on FPS, or is it strictly the graphics card?
Thanks Again!

Tiny Turtle · 03-15-2003, 06:33 AM

Since it's quite a slow machine it will affect the fps, but only mildly – the vid card does almost all of the job given that you opt for a GeForce card of any sorts. before those the video card left considerably more work to the CPU.

I say go for the GF2MX400!

/Tiny CPU

cjmaddy · 03-15-2003, 01:49 PM

Very sorry Morgan, - looks like I have started a for sale site!

..... That was NOT my intention !

Delete the above post if you wish!

Edit. Previous post deleted, thank Morgan! - Reworded version follows:-

I have just replaced my GF2MX400 with a GF4MX440 ..... so:-
Now I have yet another video card sitting in it's box doing nothing!
That makes three!

For the record. - When I came on this forum, after first discovering SSA, in November 2001, I changed from a Diamond 2Mb PCI (I still have it!) to an ATI Rage Fury (I've still got that also!), then to a GF2MX200 64Mb (my son has that one now!) followed by the GF2MX400 that I have just replaced with a GF4MX440.

Either I am mad! (stands back for a flood of comments!) - or the SSA bug has really got it's teeth into me!

feldon34 · 03-15-2003, 03:13 PM

We will probably set a policy of some sort for this very soon.

I think it should be people with at least 15 posts and we have to put some notes in the registration.

Tiny Turtle · 03-16-2003, 06:30 AM

Oh your barking mad, Cliff. Absolutely insane

/Tiny Flood

Jav400 · 03-16-2003, 08:00 AM

Cliff,

I think you have definately been bitten by the bug. As far as I can tell there is no cure. So just enjoy

Manymosi · 03-17-2003, 06:08 AM

Well,I decided to go with the MX200 because it was actually $39 at CompUSA. I couldn't get it to install however, apparently because it needs a Pentium II and I hava a Pentium I. So really my only choice is the TnT Riva 2. $69 is more than I wanted to spend but I was really looking forward to the improved framerates.
Oh well, it's only money right

Jav400 · 03-17-2003, 06:22 AM

The TNT2 Ultra is the card in my office computer. You will get better fps with that card than what you were seeing, but it won't be tons and tons better. The Ultra version gets me about 35fps @ 1600x1200 on the new MA2.

Tiny Turtle · 03-17-2003, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Jav400
. . . on the new MA2.

Oh, rub it in, why don't ya?

/Tiny Envy

CephaloP · 03-17-2003, 12:57 PM

I sympathize, Cliff. It hasn't been a year that I got a new graphics card, and already I'm pining for a new one.

feldon34 · 03-17-2003, 01:10 PM

The GF2 MX400 will make someone happy.

Manymosi · 03-18-2003, 12:45 PM

I am one frustrated guy right now. I can't get the TnT to install either! I uninstall my old drivers, install the generic VGA driver. Install the new card, reboot and get an error about an RPC stub not matching. I reboot in safe mode and use the new hardware wizard to load the drivers off the CD. It says they are installed correctly, I reboot, halfway through loading windows it reboots to safe mode. I have tried this, or variations of this at least ten times with the same result. I also downloaded new drivers from Nvidia's website - same results.
I have installed many cards before- sound,graphics,modems etc. and never had this much of a problem.
Anybody have any ideas?

Jav400 · 03-18-2003, 01:06 PM

Sounds like you might have some bits and pieces left of your old drivers that are causing you problems. There is an app called Detonator destroyer that you can run that is supposed to totally delete any and all files that go with your drivers. I would suggest you try running this program and then installing your drivers, maybe it would help. Check here for the file <a href="http://www.guru3d.com/detonator-destroyer/">Det. Destroyer</a>

Manymosi · 03-18-2003, 05:06 PM

Thanks. Tried it and it found nothing

03-14-2003, 05:10 PM	#1
Manymosi Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 65	New Graphics Card Can somebody give me advice on buying a new graphics card? I have an older system - Pentium I 200mmx, Win 98se, 80 mb ram, Permedia 23d 8 mb card in a pci slot, 19" monitor. With this system I get 15 fps at 800x600. The cards I can get at my local Compusa are: Asylum Geforce2 mx200 32mb $49 Asylum Geforce mx400 64mb $59 Nvidia TNT2 M64 32mb $69 Any thoughts on these cards? I realize I probably wont get 80 fps with my old cpu, but even 30-40 would be awesome(even at 15fps its still a great screensaver). I realize I can get these cheaper online but am not sure I want to wait.

03-14-2003, 05:46 PM	#2
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Those prices are $19, $23, and $40 more than you should pay for a GF2 MX200 32mb, a GF2 MX400 64mb (link) (what I use), or a TNT2 (link). The MX200 is a really bad deal because it is half the speed for $4 less!! Also, more importantly, your computer does not have an AGP slot so none of those cards will work. You can either try to find a PCI video card (a different kind of connector) or start considering upgrading the PC. I hate telling people that their computer is old, because I believe people should buy the amount of computer they NEED rather than the amount of computer everyone tells them they need. But $400~500 would build you a blazing fast PC that I would be proud to call my own. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-14-2003, 05:49 PM	#3
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	I'm really wishing I sold the Aquarium + Video Card bundles now. I've already been told there is no conflict-of-interest on Prolific's side. A question to you and other people on this forum... How many of you or your friends would buy the Aquarium/Video Card bundle with very clear full-color instructions on how to install (I'd make these) directly from me for $60? The Aquarium would be the CD version of MA2 and the card would be a GeForce 2 MX400 64MB. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-15-2003, 12:07 AM	#5
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	These three cards all come in a pci slot version, I double checked this. I can try to find you more online prices or even some prices in Michigan for PCI video cards if you wish. It is getting very hard to get 3D-capable PCI video cards, as AGP is now 6 years old (a long time in computer terms). The price on that TnT Riva 2 is astronomical considering it came out 3 years before the GeForce 2 MX cards. But any preferences between these cards? Do you think I would see any differences among them? What is your guess as to the frame rate I would see? Honestly, all 3 cards should generate ~50-70fps of animation at 1024x768. But the faster of the 3 cards is definately the MX400. The nVidia Line (ranked by performance rather than chronology): TnT Vanta TnT Riva TnT Riva 2 GeForce GeForce 2 MX200 GeForce 256 GeForce 2 MX400 GeForce 2 GeForce 2 GTS GeForce 4 MX440 (the product numbering here is screwy) GeForce 3 GeForce 4 Ti GeForce FX (5x00) A TnT Riva 2 is roughly 1/4th the speed of a GeForce 2 MX400. A GeForce 2 MX200 is a bandwidth-strangled MX400. Here's a good benchmark... (the benchmark is much more demanding hardware-wise than the Aquarium): http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/...charts-01.html As for what I recommend, either of the 3 cards would be fine for your present computer. But should you buy a card today that will be obsolete if you upgrade your PC in 6-12 months? Nobody's saying you need to upgrade, only that if you are considering it, I would wait and then buy 'optimal' hardware vs. buying a 'band-aid' solution now. NewEgg has the MX400 for $55. I guess pci cards are just more expensive. I just looked on Pricewatch and all the MX400 PCI cards run $55. Ouch! {EDIT: I tried to give you links to www.pricewatch.com but they have very unfriendly URLs, so search there for GeForce 2 MX400 PCI or TnT Riva 2 PCI } There is no question that the migration from ISA to VLB to PCI to AGP for video cards has been annoying. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 03-15-2003 at 12:44 AM.

03-15-2003, 03:11 AM	#6
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Whaaaaat? Surely you didn't Morgan. Can I believe my eyes? inside joke here Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum**, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

03-14-2003, 08:19 PM	#4
Manymosi Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 65	These three cards all come in a pci slot version, I double checked this. But any preferences between these cards? Do you think I would see any differences among them? What is your guess as to the frame rate I would see? NewEgg has the MX400 for $55. I guess pci cards are just more expensive.

03-15-2003, 05:16 AM	#7
Manymosi Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 65	Thanks feldon, that's exactly the info I was looking for. Now I can make an informed decision. One more question, will the slowness of my CPU have much of an effect on FPS, or is it strictly the graphics card? Thanks Again!

03-15-2003, 06:33 AM	#8
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Since it's quite a slow machine it will affect the fps, but only mildly – the vid card does almost all of the job given that you opt for a GeForce card of any sorts. before those the video card left considerably more work to the CPU. I say go for the GF2MX400! /Tiny CPU Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-15-2003, 01:49 PM	#9
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Very sorry Morgan, - looks like I have started a for sale site! ..... *That was NOT my intention !* Delete the above post if you wish! Edit. Previous post deleted, thank Morgan! - Reworded version follows:- I have just replaced my GF2MX400 with a GF4MX440 ..... so:- Now I have yet another video card sitting in it's box doing nothing! That makes three! For the record. - When I came on this forum, after first discovering SSA, in November 2001, I changed from a Diamond 2Mb PCI (I still have it!) to an ATI Rage Fury (I've still got that also!), then to a GF2MX200 64Mb (my son has that one now!) followed by the GF2MX400 that I have just replaced with a GF4MX440. Either I am mad! (stands back for a flood of comments!) - or the SSA bug has really got it's teeth into me! Last edited by cjmaddy; 03-15-2003 at 06:23 PM.

03-15-2003, 03:13 PM	#10
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	We will probably set a policy of some sort for this very soon. I think it should be people with at least 15 posts and we have to put some notes in the registration. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-16-2003, 06:30 AM	#11
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Oh your barking mad, Cliff. Absolutely insane /Tiny Flood Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-16-2003, 08:00 AM	#12
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Cliff, I think you have definately been bitten by the bug. As far as I can tell there is no cure. So just enjoy Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

03-17-2003, 06:08 AM	#13
Manymosi Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 65	Well,I decided to go with the MX200 because it was actually $39 at CompUSA. I couldn't get it to install however, apparently because it needs a Pentium II and I hava a Pentium I. So really my only choice is the TnT Riva 2. $69 is more than I wanted to spend but I was really looking forward to the improved framerates. Oh well, it's only money right

03-17-2003, 06:22 AM	#14
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	The TNT2 Ultra is the card in my office computer. You will get better fps with that card than what you were seeing, but it won't be tons and tons better. The Ultra version gets me about 35fps @ 1600x1200 on the new MA2. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

03-17-2003, 07:44 AM	#15
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Originally posted by Jav400 . . . on the new MA2. Oh, rub it in, why don't ya? /Tiny Envy

03-17-2003, 12:57 PM	#16
CephaloP lurking in the shadows... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: just a few paces south o' the old willow Posts: 151	I sympathize, Cliff. It hasn't been a year that I got a new graphics card, and already I'm pining for a new one.

03-17-2003, 01:10 PM	#17
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	The GF2 MX400 will make someone happy. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-18-2003, 12:45 PM	#18
Manymosi Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 65	I am one frustrated guy right now. I can't get the TnT to install either! I uninstall my old drivers, install the generic VGA driver. Install the new card, reboot and get an error about an RPC stub not matching. I reboot in safe mode and use the new hardware wizard to load the drivers off the CD. It says they are installed correctly, I reboot, halfway through loading windows it reboots to safe mode. I have tried this, or variations of this at least ten times with the same result. I also downloaded new drivers from Nvidia's website - same results. I have installed many cards before- sound,graphics,modems etc. and never had this much of a problem. Anybody have any ideas?

03-18-2003, 01:06 PM	#19
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Sounds like you might have some bits and pieces left of your old drivers that are causing you problems. There is an app called Detonator destroyer that you can run that is supposed to totally delete any and all files that go with your drivers. I would suggest you try running this program and then installing your drivers, maybe it would help. Check here for the file <a href="http://www.guru3d.com/detonator-destroyer/">Det. Destroyer</a> Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

03-18-2003, 05:06 PM	#20
Manymosi Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 65	Thanks. Tried it and it found nothing