*** SS Marine Aquarium 2.0 Announced! *** - Page 3

Reichart · 03-07-2003, 11:18 PM

The new Queen was done by Sachs.
Ken did the other 5 new fish.

Digital Lungfish · 03-07-2003, 11:28 PM

For lack of a better response ------> OH

feldon34 · 03-08-2003, 04:22 AM

The SereneScreen Marine Aquarium Queen Angel.
A Life in Pictures

<table border=1 cellpadding=6 cellspacing=0>
<tr><td valign=top>

The First Queen Angel
2000.09.01
</td>
<td valign=top>

Much drama followed the release of this popular version of the Queen Angel. A forum member offered the picture as his own for inclusion in the Aquarium. It has recently been discovered that the photo is actually from a book. 
2001.03.19</td>
<td valign=top>

An abandoned Queen Angel concept 
</td></tr>
<tr><td valign=top>

The teenaged Queen Angel 
2001.07.18</td>
<td colspan=2 valign=top>

the Queen Angel slated for inclusion in Marine Aquarium 2.0</td></tr>
</table>

The End?

cjmaddy · 03-08-2003, 04:49 AM

Ralph,
Mine's a regular 17", but set for 1280x720 with the monitor adjusted accordingly, - looks wonderful, - try it!

For me, the black bands complete the 'fish tank' illusion beautifully! - (ie. better proportions)

I'm with Steve (DL), - "Poll??? What poll???" - I like the Queen Angel, - it shows up the N key CalcNormals advantage better than most. - ( .... and helps feed the paranoia!

)

We've lost the best coral, - (to the broken Paving Stone, sorry, Clock!),- lets not lose the best fish as well!

feldon34 · 03-08-2003, 05:18 AM

Stick with MA 2 if you want all the coral.

The current brown Queen Angel scored behind the other 20 fish in a poll taken here on the forum last year with 400 people submitting their votes.

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...on-labeled.gif

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...lercoaster.gif

that poll continued for a few more months and an additional 250-300 votes were counted, yielding a poll of ~700 votes. The outcome shifted slightly...

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...on-labeled.gif

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...rticalbars.gif

feldon34 · 03-08-2003, 05:22 AM

<hr size=6 color=0026FF NOSHADE>
Framerates & Refresh Rate
<hr size=4 color=0026FF NOSHADE>

Continued from Announcement #2...

* I have been talking with Reichart and Jim R. in the chatroom all night about this and various solutions. If they change the Limit Framerate to 58fps or add a tick mark for 60fps and on default install 'Ctrl-S' is disabled, then by default, the Aquarium will run darn near perfect without any tweaking.

At 62fps, it pushes it over the edge of needing a higher DirectX refresh. since the default DirectX refresh is 60fps, it gets hung up somehow and CPU usage jumps from 8% to 90%. So I am strongly suggesting that the default framerate be limited to 58fps or a new tickmark added for 60fps. I really wish there were tickmarks up to 70fps cause I could run it perfectly with probably only 11% CPU usage.

As it is, with the 62fps limit, you must go into DXDIAG (Start menu -> Run...) and Override your DirectX refresh to 70Hz or beyond. I already had mine set to 75Hz which is why I never saw this problem or knew how to reproduce it before.

** For even better results, run the program "DXDIAG" from your Start -> Run menu and select the "More Help" tab, then click the "Override..." button on the right. Change the Override Value to your monitor refresh in Hz (60 is default, 75 is what most monitors can handle).

Be careful that you do not put a number higher than your monitor can support at the resolution you run the Aquarium!. If you run your desktop at 800x600 85 Hz but the Aquarium runs at 1280x1024 and your monitor can only handle 75 Hz at that res, you might damage the monitor with this Override setting by putting it higher than 75!!

I hate to put all the scary warnings like that because changing this value in DXDIAG (or using vsync or other settings in programs like CoolBits) is essential for the best possible animation in any Direct3D or OpenGL

cjmaddy · 03-08-2003, 05:29 AM

FANTASTIC NEWS !!!!!

Just been reading all your latest announcements, Morgan

What else can I say? ......

James · 03-08-2003, 05:46 AM

If you purchased the Aquarium online and it came with the Lionfish, the upgrade to MA 2.0 is $5.

hummmmm..I tot we got all free upgrade till 3D background....
Just wondering, when the 3D background version is out, those 5 new fish and the new fish-picker is certainly included, so for those ppl who buy v1.1 online can wait till that time and upgrade for free? or there's another scenario?

Just feel a bit unfair that we should got all free upgrade till 3D background but suddenly a $5 for MA 2.0.....
interesting

Jim Sachs · 03-08-2003, 11:57 AM

Well, the $5 charge is bound to be controversial. All the enhancements that I have personally done to the Aquarium program have been free, and probably always will be. When I was doing the project alone, I intended for all the upgrades to the program itself to be free, and only charge extra for the Creature Paks. But the Prolific artists and programmers who spent months on the new interface deserve to get paid for their efforts. Any suggestions?

Jim Sachs · 03-08-2003, 12:02 PM

Regarding the changing Queen Angel -

These are all accurate representaions of Queen Angels at different stages in their development, taken from photos of actual fish. There are many species of marine fish which go through an incredible metamorphosis from juvenile to adult, and the Queen is one of them.

Enigma · 03-08-2003, 02:12 PM

Personally, I have no problem paying $5 for this upgrade. I think it is a wonderful product and I have already gotten more than my money's worth.

Vish · 03-08-2003, 02:17 PM

I concur with Enigma.
I wouldn't mind paying 5$...

Rick · 03-08-2003, 02:30 PM

All sounds really good...can't wait to see it!

James · 03-08-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Well, the $5 charge is bound to be controversial. All the enhancements that I have personally done to the Aquarium program have been free, and probably always will be. When I was doing the project alone, I intended for all the upgrades to the program itself to be free, and only charge extra for the Creature Paks. But the Prolific artists and programmers who spent months on the new interface deserve to get paid for their efforts. Any suggestions?

I actually don't mind about that extra $5(should include this statement in my last post

), and now Jim clears up, All the enhancements doen by Jim is free(very noble of u Jim), but now there r 4 fish rn't done by him, now I understand why the extra charge.

But still, the point I don't understand is why only for ppl buying v1.1 should pay for extra but not all?
what's the difference between old supporter and new supporter?

Prolific can always raise the price of the new product, but it's not very good to explicitly define the line between old register and new register by that v1.1 version, they r all legal register, why the differences?

I dont' mind the small amount of upgrade, but just if they intend to charge, they should see all the register the same, equally.

I dont' think it's efficient two make diff version that include/exclud the 5 new fish when 3D bckgnd kicks in, or they'll release diff key code to activate the fish?

plz correct me if I said anything wrong

grape_jellyfish · 03-08-2003, 04:35 PM

I guess the old saying "Good things come to those who wait" just doesnt apply to this.

Reichart · 03-08-2003, 04:49 PM

1. q: plz correct me if I said anything wrong
A: OK.

2. Q: I actually don't mind about that extra $5
A: Good.

3. Q: but now there r 4 fish rn't done by him, now I understand why the extra charge.
A: 5, hand crafted original pieces of moving art.

4. Q: But still, the point I don't understand is why only for ppl buying v1.1 should pay for extra but not all? what's the difference between old supporter and new supporter?
A: Early adopters were participations in the nascent stages of the product, and as a gift from Prolific, this update is being made free.

If you would like us to charge the early adopters, and refuse our gift, you are welcome to.

5. Q: Prolific can always raise the price of the new product, but it's not very good to explicitly define the line between old register and new register by that v1.1 version, they r all legal register, why the differences?

A: Actually we are lowing the price as well.

6. Q: I dont' mind the small amount of upgrade, but just if they intend to charge, they should see all the register the same, equally.
A: The original product is the product, and the new product has 5 new fish, and an improved UI. It is that simple. Every version of the product gets better and better, and easier to upgrade and improve.

This ensures the product’s long and healthy life, and hopefully over the next decade or so, the product will have continued to grow and meet the technological advancements that will occur in hardware and software.

In addition, while this product has defined a new philosophy of products for computers, it also may lead to a wonderful improvement in environmental appreciation.

Enjoy it.

Reichart · 03-08-2003, 04:54 PM

1. Q: Grape wrote: I guess the old saying "Good things come to those who wait" just doesnt apply to this.
A: I think you have this backwards. The people that waited the longest are the very people that get the good things, and for free.

Jim Sachs · 03-08-2003, 05:27 PM

It's free for you, Grapie.

feldon34 · 03-08-2003, 05:29 PM

Ok, let's put this in perspective.

Everyone before 1.1 was a beta tester. Jim's betas are virtually bug-free compared to everyone else's shipping products, but that's neither here nor there.

So the Aquarium worked really well but it was cobbled together with duct tape and beautiful art. It was a struggle to add anything to it. Jim will admit this with no reservation. Adding the Lionfish was likely 1 month of art and 5 months of beating his head against a wall trying to get DirectX and his existing algorithyms to behave with a totally new fish, moving mouth and gills, etc.

It was announced in June 2001 that Prolific would be dipping into the Aquarium code to start making tweaks here and there and make it run a lot better on a lot of different configurations.

Thousands of hours by 2 programmers, another artist, and a lot of direct involvement by Reichart later (his job is to manage all the products, not 1!!!), the Aquarium is modular, extensible, runs smooth as silk on more systems than any other screen saver in the same league, etc. All this work that's been done is going to pay off big-time. The bear has been in hibernation, but now it's out.

A promise was made towards the testers before 1.0 came out. That promise is being maintained. I do recall Jim saying that after 1.0, some things in the pricing would change but it was not specified.

Jim also thought he'd be done with the Butterfly Garden and halfway thru the first Saltwater Creature Pack by now too. Things don't always go as planned.

Digital Lungfish · 03-08-2003, 05:33 PM

There are many species of marine fish which go through an incredible metamorphosis from juvenile to adult, and the Queen is one of them.

You're right of course Jim, I guess I just haven't seen ALL stages of the Queen Angel from juvi to adult. That being said, why is the Queen Angel the only fish that has been changed so frequently when other fish on the list also rank on the low end near it, but they don't receive the same treatment? In fact, some of those other fish are arguably less attractive (the Picasso Trigger for example), why has it not been updated as much or been replaced altogether? Personally, I'd replace it, but that's just me and although I can't speak for most everyone else on the forum, I don't think it would be missed.

Also, in regards to polls, have you considered trying a different type of poll? For example, perhaps instead of basing it on popularity, you could try one which allows users to vote whether a fish should be modified to reflect a more attractive stage in it's lifecycle or to replace it entirely with a new and more attractive fish. Your thoughts???

P.S.
I understand that the Queen Angel has probably been changed for that same reason, but thought a different pole might yield more specific results as to why users do or don't like certain fish.

03-07-2003, 11:18 PM	#41
Reichart CTO Prolific Publishing Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui Posts: 423	Queen The new Queen was done by Sachs. Ken did the other 5 new fish. *Reichart...* , CTO, Prolific Publishing, Inc. Come visit us Prolific Publishing, Inc.

03-07-2003, 11:28 PM	#42
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	For lack of a better response ------> OH Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...

03-08-2003, 04:22 AM	#43
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	<font face="Futura, Helvetica, Arial" size=+1>The SereneScreen Marine Aquarium Queen Angel. A Life in Pictures</font> <table border=1 cellpadding=6 cellspacing=0> <tr><td valign=top><br> The First Queen Angel <b>2000.09.01</b> </td> <td valign=top><br> Much drama followed the release of this popular version of the Queen Angel. A forum member offered the picture as his own for inclusion in the Aquarium. It has recently been discovered that the photo is actually from a book.<br> 2001.03.19</td> <td valign=top><br> An abandoned Queen Angel concept<br> </td></tr> <tr><td valign=top><br> The teenaged Queen Angel<br> 2001.07.18</td> <td colspan=2 valign=top><br> the Queen Angel slated for inclusion in Marine Aquarium 2.0</td></tr> </table> The End? "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 04-23-2003 at 10:05 AM.

03-08-2003, 05:18 AM	#45
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Stick with MA 2 if you want all the coral. The current brown Queen Angel scored behind the other 20 fish in a poll taken here on the forum last year with 400 people submitting their votes. https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...on-labeled.gif https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...lercoaster.gif that poll continued for a few more months and an additional 250-300 votes were counted, yielding a poll of ~700 votes. The outcome shifted slightly... https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...on-labeled.gif https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...rticalbars.gif "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-08-2003, 05:22 AM	#46
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	<hr size=6 color=0026FF NOSHADE> <font face="Futura,Helvetica,Arial" size=+2><b>Framerates & Refresh Rate</b></font> <hr size=4 color=0026FF NOSHADE> Continued from Announcement #2... * I have been talking with Reichart and Jim R. in the chatroom all night about this and various solutions. If they change the Limit Framerate to 58fps or add a tick mark for 60fps and on default install 'Ctrl-S' is disabled, then by default, the Aquarium will run darn near perfect without any tweaking. At 62fps, it pushes it over the edge of needing a higher DirectX refresh. since the default DirectX refresh is 60fps, it gets hung up somehow and CPU usage jumps from 8% to 90%. So I am strongly suggesting that the default framerate be limited to 58fps or a new tickmark added for 60fps. I really wish there were tickmarks up to 70fps cause I could run it perfectly with probably only 11% CPU usage. As it is, with the 62fps limit, you must go into DXDIAG (Start menu -> Run...) and Override your DirectX refresh to 70Hz or beyond. I already had mine set to 75Hz which is why I never saw this problem or knew how to reproduce it before. ** For even better results, run the program "DXDIAG" from your Start -> Run menu and select the "More Help" tab, then click the "Override..." button on the right. Change the Override Value to your monitor refresh in Hz (60 is default, 75 is what most monitors can handle). Be careful that you do not put a number higher than your monitor can support at the resolution you run the Aquarium!. If you run your desktop at 800x600 85 Hz but the Aquarium runs at 1280x1024 and your monitor can only handle 75 Hz at that res, you might damage the monitor with this Override setting by putting it higher than 75!! I hate to put all the scary warnings like that because changing this value in DXDIAG (or using vsync or other settings in programs like CoolBits) is essential for the best possible animation in any Direct3D or OpenGL "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-08-2003, 04:49 AM	#44
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Ralph, Mine's a regular 17", but set for 1280x720 with the monitor adjusted accordingly, - looks wonderful, - try it! For me, the black bands complete the 'fish tank' illusion beautifully! - (ie. better proportions) I'm with Steve (DL), - "Poll??? What poll???" - I like the Queen Angel, - it shows up the N key CalcNormals advantage better than most. - ( .... and helps feed the paranoia! ) We've lost the best coral, - (to the broken Paving Stone, sorry, Clock!),- lets not lose the best fish as well!

03-08-2003, 05:29 AM	#47
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	FANTASTIC NEWS !!!!! Just been reading all your latest announcements, Morgan What else can I say? ......

03-08-2003, 05:46 AM	#48
James Principal Engineer as SDET Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Was in Auckland, New Zealand, Now in Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 1,406	If you purchased the Aquarium online and it came with the Lionfish, the upgrade to MA 2.0 is $5. hummmmm..I tot we got all free upgrade till 3D background.... Just wondering, when the 3D background version is out, those 5 new fish and the new fish-picker is certainly included, so for those ppl who buy v1.1 online can wait till that time and upgrade for free? or there's another scenario? Just feel a bit unfair that we should got all free upgrade till 3D background but suddenly a $5 for MA 2.0..... interesting James C Chen Principal Engineer as SDET, Connected Services HTC Corporation 88 Section 3. Zhongxing Road Xindian District, New Taipei City 231, Taiwan www.htc.com

03-08-2003, 11:57 AM	#49
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Well, the $5 charge is bound to be controversial. All the enhancements that I have personally done to the Aquarium program have been free, and probably always will be. When I was doing the project alone, I intended for all the upgrades to the program itself to be free, and only charge extra for the Creature Paks. But the Prolific artists and programmers who spent months on the new interface deserve to get paid for their efforts. Any suggestions? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-08-2003, 12:02 PM	#50
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Regarding the changing Queen Angel - These are all accurate representaions of Queen Angels at different stages in their development, taken from photos of actual fish. There are many species of marine fish which go through an incredible metamorphosis from juvenile to adult, and the Queen is one of them. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-08-2003, 02:12 PM	#51
Enigma Registered Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntsville, Alabama Posts: 435	Personally, I have no problem paying $5 for this upgrade. I think it is a wonderful product and I have already gotten more than my money's worth. ?

03-08-2003, 02:17 PM	#52
Vish Registered Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: California Posts: 103	I concur with Enigma. I wouldn't mind paying 5$... --Vish

03-08-2003, 02:30 PM	#53
Rick Registered Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 13	All sounds really good...can't wait to see it!

03-08-2003, 04:22 PM	#54
James Principal Engineer as SDET Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Was in Auckland, New Zealand, Now in Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 1,406	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Well, the $5 charge is bound to be controversial. All the enhancements that I have personally done to the Aquarium program have been free, and probably always will be. When I was doing the project alone, I intended for all the upgrades to the program itself to be free, and only charge extra for the Creature Paks. But the Prolific artists and programmers who spent months on the new interface deserve to get paid for their efforts. Any suggestions? I actually don't mind about that extra $5(should include this statement in my last post ), and now Jim clears up, All the enhancements doen by Jim is free(very noble of u Jim), but now there r 4 fish rn't done by him, now I understand why the extra charge. But still, the point I don't understand is why only for ppl buying v1.1 should pay for extra but not all? what's the difference between old supporter and new supporter? Prolific can always raise the price of the new product, but it's not very good to explicitly define the line between old register and new register by that v1.1 version, they r all legal register, why the differences? I dont' mind the small amount of upgrade, but just if they intend to charge, they should see all the register the same, equally. I dont' think it's efficient two make diff version that include/exclud the 5 new fish when 3D bckgnd kicks in, or they'll release diff key code to activate the fish? plz correct me if I said anything wrong James C Chen Principal Engineer as SDET, Connected Services HTC Corporation 88 Section 3. Zhongxing Road Xindian District, New Taipei City 231, Taiwan www.htc.com

03-08-2003, 04:35 PM	#55
grape_jellyfish Registered Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,235	I guess the old saying "Good things come to those who wait" just doesnt apply to this. Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass....It's learning to Dance in the Rain.

03-08-2003, 04:49 PM	#56
Reichart CTO Prolific Publishing Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui Posts: 423	Early Adopters 1. q: plz correct me if I said anything wrong A: OK. 2. Q: I actually don't mind about that extra $5 A: Good. 3. Q: but now there r 4 fish rn't done by him, now I understand why the extra charge. A: 5, hand crafted original pieces of moving art. 4. Q: But still, the point I don't understand is why only for ppl buying v1.1 should pay for extra but not all? what's the difference between old supporter and new supporter? A: Early adopters were participations in the nascent stages of the product, and as a gift from Prolific, this update is being made free. If you would like us to charge the early adopters, and refuse our gift, you are welcome to. 5. Q: Prolific can always raise the price of the new product, but it's not very good to explicitly define the line between old register and new register by that v1.1 version, they r all legal register, why the differences? A: Actually we are lowing the price as well. 6. Q: I dont' mind the small amount of upgrade, but just if they intend to charge, they should see all the register the same, equally. A: The original product is the product, and the new product has 5 new fish, and an improved UI. It is that simple. Every version of the product gets better and better, and easier to upgrade and improve. This ensures the product’s long and healthy life, and hopefully over the next decade or so, the product will have continued to grow and meet the technological advancements that will occur in hardware and software. In addition, while this product has defined a new philosophy of products for computers, it also may lead to a wonderful improvement in environmental appreciation. Enjoy it. *Reichart...* , CTO, Prolific Publishing, Inc. Come visit us Prolific Publishing, Inc.

03-08-2003, 04:54 PM	#57
Reichart CTO Prolific Publishing Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui Posts: 423	Best things in life are free. 1. Q: Grape wrote: I guess the old saying "Good things come to those who wait" just doesnt apply to this. A: I think you have this backwards. The people that waited the longest are the very people that get the good things, and for free. *Reichart...* , CTO, Prolific Publishing, Inc. Come visit us Prolific Publishing, Inc.

03-08-2003, 05:27 PM	#58
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	It's free for you, Grapie. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-08-2003, 05:29 PM	#59
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Ok, let's put this in perspective. Everyone before 1.1 was a beta tester. Jim's betas are virtually bug-free compared to everyone else's shipping products, but that's neither here nor there. So the Aquarium worked really well but it was cobbled together with duct tape and beautiful art. It was a struggle to add anything to it. Jim will admit this with no reservation. Adding the Lionfish was likely 1 month of art and 5 months of beating his head against a wall trying to get DirectX and his existing algorithyms to behave with a totally new fish, moving mouth and gills, etc. It was announced in June 2001 that Prolific would be dipping into the Aquarium code to start making tweaks here and there and make it run a lot better on a lot of different configurations. Thousands of hours by 2 programmers, another artist, and a lot of direct involvement by Reichart later (his job is to manage all the products, not 1!!!), the Aquarium is modular, extensible, runs smooth as silk on more systems than any other screen saver in the same league, etc. All this work that's been done is going to pay off big-time. The bear has been in hibernation, but now it's out. A promise was made towards the testers before 1.0 came out. That promise is being maintained. I do recall Jim saying that after 1.0, some things in the pricing would change but it was not specified. Jim also thought he'd be done with the Butterfly Garden and halfway thru the first Saltwater Creature Pack by now too. Things don't always go as planned. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-08-2003, 05:33 PM	#60
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	There are many species of marine fish which go through an incredible metamorphosis from juvenile to adult, and the Queen is one of them. You're right of course Jim, I guess I just haven't seen ALL stages of the Queen Angel from juvi to adult. That being said, why is the Queen Angel the only fish that has been changed so frequently when other fish on the list also rank on the low end near it, but they don't receive the same treatment? In fact, some of those other fish are arguably less attractive (the Picasso Trigger for example), why has it not been updated as much or been replaced altogether? Personally, I'd replace it, but that's just me and although I can't speak for most everyone else on the forum, I don't think it would be missed. Also, in regards to polls, have you considered trying a different type of poll? For example, perhaps instead of basing it on popularity, you could try one which allows users to vote whether a fish should be modified to reflect a more attractive stage in it's lifecycle or to replace it entirely with a new and more attractive fish. Your thoughts??? P.S. I understand that the Queen Angel has probably been changed for that same reason, but thought a different pole might yield more specific results as to why users do or don't like certain fish. Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...