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#1 |
Registered
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 10
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Hi Jim or Feldon,
Are there any plans to work on the animation of the fish when they turn around (ie: make it more realistic). Whilst the program truely is a work of art, and the best £15 I have ever spent, the only thing that let's it down, in my eye's, is the movement of the fish when they turn. In all fairness it's not that bad, but against the outstanding quality of the rest of the program, it does stand out. Cheers Vaz |
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#2 |
Developer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 9,816
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I don't quite follow you. What would you suggest?
Jim Sachs
Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium |
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#3 |
Green Frog
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 840
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I think the turning of the fish is really realistic...
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#4 |
Sage
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: West Hills, CA
Posts: 1,529
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From other threads and conversations, I seem to remember that some little mechanical things were done with the fins when the lionfish turns to avoid collisions.
BUT none of the turning ever struck me as unrealisitic in the least. Not even now that I am looking to see if it is.
Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!
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#5 |
YT
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I have another "animation" question: are there plans to animate some fishes in another way? I have seen a different movement in a real tank (i think it was a blue powder tang), both side-fins are moved forward and back at the same time and then they swim a bit up and down. Looks funny.
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#6 |
Developer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 9,816
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Absolutely. I have always planned on adding movement and behavior based on species.
Jim Sachs
Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium |
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#7 |
Registered
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 10
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Jim,
It's quite difficult to expain in words but I'll give it a go... :-) I haven't sat and studied all the fish but some, for example the Pecula Clown, have quite a 'mechanical' feel to them when they turn (compared to some of the others). Sometime's it looks like the fish is 'almost' rotating without either a body turn or kick/turn of the tail etc. Sometimes I have seen them turn and move up or down in a very iagonal manner. I guess this is all in perspective though, I still think they turn pretty realisictly but given the quality of the other swimming movements and the quality of the models, it stands out. Of course, I seem to be the only one seeing this so maybe my eye's need testing or I need shooting for being to 'picky' :-) Cheers Vaz |
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#8 |
Forum Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 10,947
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The diagonal movement is for avoidance.
The Percula Clown swims exactly the same as all the other fish. Therein lies the problem
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell
"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman |
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#9 |
Registered
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 10
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Originally posted by feldon23 Ah that explains a lot then. For some of the fish it is spot on and for other's it does look a little peculiar (no pun intended) :-)The Percula Clown swims exactly the same as all the other fish. Therein lies the problem Sounds like Jim is already on-top of it though, by adding movement and behaviour for each species. Thanks for the feedback. Regards Vaz |
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#10 |
Obey the toad!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 2,557
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I guess this is all in perspective though, I still think they turn pretty realisictly but given the quality of the other swimming movements and the quality of the models, it stands out. No, you're not the only one seeing this, I've noticed it for some time as well. I neglected to bring it to Jim's attention because I thought it would be cleared up when he began making final AI and animation changes to each of the different species. Basically, I just chalked it up to unfinished work pending completion, but it is noticable and obvious for anyone that understands how fish swim, turn, and move through the water.Of course, I seem to be the only one seeing this It is very difficult to describe and it is random, but what I'm seeing is a fish will turn part of the way in a realistic manner (head moves through the path with the body and tail following), then the last part of the turn the fish looks more like it's sliding on a moving pivot (instead of the head leading the way, the middle of the body follows the path). In any case, you just have to watch the fish for a while, watch as they turn near the sides of the aquarium, eventually you will see it.
Steve
www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday... Last edited by Digital Lungfish; 05-15-2002 at 02:23 AM. |
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#11 |
Forum Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 10,947
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Jim has come 10 times farther than any other artist in making realistic fish animation. But there is still a long distance to go.
I went to a friend's with a saltwater tank. I know for certain that Tangs don't swim like they do in the Aquarium. They dart about, swim backwards, turn on a dime with quick fin thrusts, etc.
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell
"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman |
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#12 |
Registered
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 12
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I have noticed this with the Pecula Clown too. The best way I could describe it would be this fish appears "stiffer" when turning but only if you watch the tricky blighter for more than 4 hours, doing no work, as I have done today!! :-)
I just emailed my girlfriend telling her I plan to create an aquarium in the bedroom with a computer monitor using Jim's screensaver. She said "we will have to discuss this" - she hasn't see the screensaver yet :-) |
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#13 |
Registered
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 10
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Originally posted by glenramsey ROFL... ahhh that familiar old saying... time to visit the flower shop :-)She said "we will have to discuss this" Vaz |
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#14 |
Obey the toad!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 2,557
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Jim has come 10 times farther than any other artist in making realistic fish animation.
I totally agree Morgan, he definately has. In fact, the only other program that has even come close was that Breen (sp?) screensaver. I can't think of any other programs other than that.As for this turning issue, it's just a random bug and doesn't reflect the actual quality of Jim's fish animation. If I made it sound like I was questioning the quality of the animation, then that's my mistake and I apologize for that. As far as I'm concerned, the fish all move VERY convincingly, so Jim has done a great job so far. The only thing left is to give each of the fish it's own AI and animation, but that's later on down the line as Jim has pointed out.
I know for certain that Tangs don't swim like they do in the Aquarium.
Very true, Tangs (at least Regal Tangs) swim very much like a bird flies through the air. They flap their fins like a bird flaps it's wings.
Steve
www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday... |
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#15 |
lurking in the shadows...
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: just a few paces south o' the old willow
Posts: 151
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The "mechanical fish turning" is something I also noticed, but never got around to posting about. The fish basically seem to freeze in place while an invisible hand slowly rotates them on an axis. Depending on the type of fish, in RL you would see a stronger tail flick to the side the fish was turning, especially for a quick turn, and/or using the pectoral fin on the opposite side of the turn for slower pivots.
I'm glad someone else brought this up, I felt like I was just being too picky. But the longer I've had the Aquarium the more I notice this, and it really does destroy the illusion of reality to watch the fish turn. |
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#16 |
Forum Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 10,947
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The collision system in the Aquarium right now was put in as a compromise with the 2D flat background we have now.
The tank has two layers, front and back. A fish can switch layers, but it only has two possible layers to swim in, front or back. Also, there is no real collision detection. It is, in fact, spherical area avoidance. literally, treat each fish as if it were a sphere, and keep the spheres from overlapping. Hopefully with the 3D background, each fish will be represented not as an imaginary sphere, which produces the awkward turning and up-down avoidance stuff, to where two fish can sidestep just enough to get around each other. Also, it won't be 2 fixed depths, but hopefully either unlimited, or many more possible depths that the fish can swim.
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell
"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman |
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#17 |
Green Frog
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 840
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sounds cool
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#18 |
Registered
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2
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I must say that i too have noticed that weird sensation when the smaller fish get to the edge of the tank, start to turn then are stunned and slowly get swiveled around with no tail/body/fin movement. The larger fish like the lionfish do not seem to do this.
Maybe the smaller fish couls be 'sped up' on the turn, so that the freezing is instantaneous and much less noticable, or maybe they could have some animation as they turn. not sure of the technical aspects of this, i assumes that since they are 3d objects then they could be just as easily drawn and animated frontways as sideways. But i'm not a successfull programmer that produced such a fantastic program, so what the hey! Anway, congrats on a fantastic piece of software, i have yet to see anything else that comes close, even for 100 times the price! Well done Quango |
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#19 |
Developer
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 9,816
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It's not really worth the time to change the movement algorithm, since it will be thrown away when the 3D background is done anyway.
Jim Sachs
Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium |
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#20 |
Registered
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 59
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Whoa! Now i cant wait for the 3D background even more.
I always find myself looking at the top left of the tank and try to figure out if that is, as i think, some tentacled animone frozen in 2D. But hey, at least the fish do turn! Im sure it would have a similar effect if the fish swam off screen then entered again facing back in...but Jim doesnt appear to settle for cheap shortcuts. ![]() Still holding my breath for the update ![]() |
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