HARDWARE Questions & Answers

[SunKing]

My apologies to CephaloP (and Morgan). I'm a tech geek - and forget sometimes that not everyone else is too. Again - I'm sorry - didn't intend to offend anyone.

[Shinsa]

Sunking, you must have a pretty slow system if the 3D screensavers that came with windows uses 100% of the CPU.

My system is not a SLOW system, but its not the fastest either (check my signature). The Aquarium uses 99% CPU while the windows 3D SS use from roughly 10% ~ 60%. One was at the 10% mark (non-3D), one was at the 60% mark (3D text/time), and the rest were all about 53%, pipes, flowerbox, and so on.

BUT, I don't think the Windows SS require a 3D card, or even if a 3D card helps with those.

[SunKing]

Shinsa, you are correct. My bad (and the 2nd one from me on this thread...jeez). I've been looking at my 'work' PC's...most of which have terrible video cards...so the processor must carry the load. After reading your post I checked my home PC (AMD 1800+, GeForece3)...and the processor hardly noticed the 3d pipes.

[Jav400]

CephaloP,

Looks like some others have already pointed you in the right direction. We need some more information to be able to help you. Please post and tell us what you think the reason is that the card won't fit. Is it a physical problem, or the wrong card for the slot you are using?

[snorkler]

I found CephaloP's questions and your responses very helpful, being not too technically oriented myself. Anyone- is there a web site or other sources that you would recommend to find out about video cards? the difference between AGP and PCI? What you have to do to install such? Thanks!

[feldon34]

AGP is faster.

Only use PCI if your PC simply does not have an AGP slot.

[Tiny Turtle]

The AGP bus/port/slot was introduced back in '97 and is only intended for video cards unlike the PCI slot which is used for most types of expansion cards. AGP isn't available on every motherboard (aka mainboard) because some manufacturers save money (and space) by integrating the graphics chip directly on the motherboard. Most of the time those boards are missing the AGP slot, but sometimes it's still there. If so you can just pop in a new (AGP) video card and start blazing away. If not, you are left with the PCI alternative (or stick with the integrated graphics).

Before the PCI slot was introduced expansion cards used a slot called ISA (or E-ISA). This was a slow solution but worked alright back then. In the name of backwards compability this slot remained on lots of motherboards for ages, but is finally disappearing now. No video card using the ISA port could handle running the Aquarium.

I'm enclosing an image which might clarify what the slots look like inside the PC. Since there probably are some expansion cards in the slots your PC will not look exactly like in the image, but you should get the picture...

[CephaloP]

Lol, looks like I drew in a crowd. "Hey, everyone, come see the guy who's video card is too big!"

SunKing- no worries, I guess I was kind of naive assuming whatever I got would be compatible with my computer. I actually wondered about it for a sec before buying, but I figured if there was that big an element of getting the right card for the right pc, I would see something like a "gateway version card" or something to that effect being offered for sale. You know, something saying "Here I am, this is the one you need, most others wouldn't work for you!" Seems like you make the most profit by selling something everyone can use, not just a few people.

Anyway, Tiny, that picture is VERY helpful. What I'm seeing in my pc is two slots (one already being taken up by the modem I think) that look exactly like the PCI slots in the pic according to color, ect. I see nothing like that AGP slot.

Also, and this is where I'm really going to show my ignorance, since I don't know the proper names for things, on the back of the computer there are little metal doors for components that stick out the back of the case, lining up with the slots inside. The technical term I'm assigning to these is "doors." Each door has a "shelf" which needs to be unscrewed from the case to open the door. The video card, as well as the modem? (it looks shaped to take a phone jack) also have "shelves" which sit on the case's shelves and get screwed in when the component is installed. The thing is, with the card I bought, the shelf is about an inch higher than the case's shelf, and it looks impossible for the back part of the card to even fit through the door. Also, the "gold connector stuff" at the bottom of the card, which is obviously what goes into the slot, seems to be too far from the back of the card to fit into the slot even if the card could fit in the door. This seems to make sense now since the AGP slot in the picture is farther away from the back of the case than the PCI.

So, what I'm guessing is, I got a AGP card when I only have a PCI slot? Does this also tie in to the phenomenon of "card being too tall for door"? Or does that make any sense at all?

If it is just a matter of getting a PCI card, any suggestions?

And thanks for your time and effort. You guys are rather more helpful than Gateway tech support.

[Shinsa]

CephaloP

You need a PCI card... OR.... you coould buy a new mother board, one with an AGP slot. Just make sure you have a friend come over to help you. It is VERY easy to replace a mother board, but then, its also very easy to drive a sports car over 140 MPH! LOL

Seriously though, motherboards can be upgraded for decent prices.

BUT! Be careful when/if you buy. Make sure it will fit your case. Manufacturers sometimes make their "box" or "case" proprietery. Made in such a way that only THEIR mobo (motherboards) will fit. I ran in to that problem once, and then just threw the case away, and bought a new one.

You can find cases ranging in prices $25 ~ $250 (or MORE!) I made mine using a $29 case from Fry's Electronics. Its small, but most everything fits (LOL I did say most, my DVD drive sticks out about 2 inches from the front of the case because the case I bought isn't an ATHLON case, and my system RAM is in the way. So I have this handy little shelf to sit my sunglasses ).

[feldon34]

I firmly disagree that it is "very easy" to replace a motherboard.

Even with jumperless motherboards.

[Tiny Turtle]

Hmmm... too tall you say? – Well let's have a, look shall we?

Never heard of different heights, perhaps this is due to that the gold connector stuff goes quite deep into the slot. How about if you remove the original video card (the video card is the one with a connector on the back with 15 holes in three rows which match up to your monitor cable.) and compare the height of the old and new card.

Do it like this:
1. Cut the power by removing the power cable on the back.
2. Crack the case open.
3. Unscrew the "shelf".
4. Gently (OK, it might take some force but try anyway) remove the card by pulling straight up.
5. Nothing more to it.

Now you can compare the metal plate on the back of your two video cards and see if the height matches. It should and if so you are free to replace the card with a PCI one. If the size differs Gateway have made a pretty stupid step away from standard sizes and I can't imagine why.

Reinstall the card in the same way as you took it out (I know – in reverse order).

The expansion card with a phone line connector on the back are most likely your modem (network cards have a slightly wider version of the same connector)

The different placing of the gold connector stuff on PCI and AGP cards is as you were thinking of course to not insert it into the wrong slot.

I think the large response your post received is due to the fact that we cheered you on in getting a new card without checking all the details. Sorry about that and hope everything works out! Keep us updated on your progress and please don't hesitate to ask if there's anything we can do.

I'll have to agree with Morgan on the Mobo replacing. Everything is easy when you know how, but there are lots of stuff that could mess itself up.


P.S.
Where in the world are you? For some reason I've got the idea that you're British, but I can't really explain why I think so.

[feldon34]

The thing is, with the card I bought, the shelf is about an inch higher than the case's shelf, and it looks impossible for the back part of the card to even fit through the door. Also, the "gold connector stuff" at the bottom of the card, which is obviously what goes into the slot, seems to be too far from the back of the card to fit into the slot even if the card could fit in the door.

Doesn't work that way.

You take off the side of the case, remove the door, insert the card straight into the slot, and then screw the card into where the door used to be. There's no way you could slide this or any card in through the back of your computer!

This seems to make sense now since the AGP slot in the picture is farther away from the back of the case than the PCI.

If you don't see a BROWN slot, you don't have an AGP slot. Period.

White = PCI
Brown = AGP
Black = ISA

So, what I'm guessing is, I got a AGP card when I only have a PCI slot? Does this also tie in to the phenomenon of "card being too tall for door"? Or does that make any sense at all?

Being too tall means nothing. If you look closely, the pins on the AGP card are TOTALLY different from the pins on a PCI card. Even if it were "short enough" there's no way it could work. They speak totally different languages.

I would see something like a "gateway version card" or something to that effect being offered for sale. You know, something saying "Here I am, this is the one you need, most others wouldn't work for you!" Seems like you make the most profit by selling something everyone can use, not just a few people.

Actually, I hate when companies do this. Compaq forces you to buy their memory, which costs 3 times that of normal memory.

Everybody needs to use standard components. AGP is a standard component since 1997. PCI is a standard component, but it largely stopped being used for video cards in 1998.


You need to send the AGP card back, beg that they will give you a refund (it's your responsibility to know what's in your computer before you buy replacement parts, sorry man!), and then get a PCI card.

[Tiny Turtle]

Aw dammit, Calle! Read, translate and *understand* before you try and present a solution!

Sorry if I confused anybody. Seems like I misinterpreted the things in CephaloP's last post. I read to tall and thought it was the depth of the PCB that was the issue. Nice to see my favorite Texan double-check my so called solutions.

/Calle

[feldon34]

The only documented case I've heard so far of an AGP card not fitting in an AGP slot is a motherboard that had a ton of tall capacitors sitting near where the card goes, and the card is an odd shape that on most motherboards fits fine, but has problems on this one motherboard.

[Jav400]

CephaloP,

I also have a Gateway system. I have had it for several years now, and instead of purchasing a new one, I did as you are trying to do. I upgraded my CPU from a P3 600Mhz. to a P3 1 Ghz. and the video card from a TNT2 Ultra to a GF2 Ultra. There are several things that you need to know to do these kinds of things. It is harder than pluging in a lamp cord, but its not brain surgery either. I am not sure that I would recommend that you try to start from scratch with a new motherboard. But what I would suggest that you do, is call Gateway and tell them that you are considering upgrading your system. They do sell parts for this. Bear in mind that I am not telling you that you have to purchase the parts from them, ( but if you do they would be covered by a warranty and they would help you install them or troubleshoot them if need be ) but at least they have the necessary information and knowledge about your system that you lack, so pick there brains and learn as much as you can. They could give you the information that you need to know, and then if you find the same card somewhere else for less $$$ and want to try installing it yourself you are ahead of the game.

And as always, if you have any questions that you would like to discuss in real time, you are always welcome to come into the chatroom and we will be more than happy to help you.

[flipper]

Tiny Turtle, "No video card using the ISA port could handle running the Aquarium" is flat out wrong, imho

i have an old '98 micron that I tested this out on. it has a 200mhz processor and a 32mb ISA, s3 based graphics card. this system runs the aquarium at a respectable 22 to 25 fps, no flicker, no stuttering, nothing. everything is perfectly smooth. i think the fish actually swim "better" than on my home-grown ABIT SA6R based system, which has a gig PIII and 64mb nvidia.

CephaloP, i have another solution for you. if you want it, i will send you my 32mb ISA card. the motherboard is slowly dying anyway (ive already lost the sound and secondary ide for the cd rom) it actually does not have that many miles on it so it should last as long as the rest of your system.

[Tiny Turtle]

OK, things aren't going to well for me in this thread...

That's actually really cool info, Flipper – not to mention grand of you. Have you got a model number/name on that S3?

[flipper]

thanks TT (cool avatar btw).

the cards a diamond stealth iii s540. i know diamond has/had a bad reputation, but with the s3 driver it actually behaved okay. it came with a nfs-iii hot pursuit trial cd. iirc, when i ran it i was able to run at 1024x768x16 on the system i mentioned with no problems.

that is the resolution/color depth i tested the SS at as well.

ive located the driver and nfs-iii cds now and im rummaging through boxes to try and find the printed docs, if any.

[asprague]

CephaloP,
Replacing a video card is pretty easy. Replacing a motherboard is not.
It might take 15 minutes to open your computer case, pull out your old video card, and replace it with a new one. Then probably about the same amount to time to get your computer to recognize the card and add new video drivers if need be.
It's only "pretty easy" once you have seen it done or, better yet, have been walked through it. Your best bet, as mentioned before, is to have a friend who is a computer-geek show you what is involved. The only caveat is that this friend must have lots of patience and must want this to be a learning experience for you.
There may be a computer users group in your area. They usually meet once a month. They are for novices and the experienced. They are a great way for the beginner to get started and a great way to the experienced to share with others what they know.
Arnold

[Shinsa]

CephaloP,

Asprague is giving some great advice there. One thing, just make sure any friend that helps you REALLY knows whats he's doing.
A friend of mine learned that the hard way. He mailed his God-daughter a PC, and her nieghbour put it together.

Old school thought was to leave the PC power supply plugged in (with power off) to act as a ground for static electricity. But newer power supplies still send power to the motherboard even when power is off. So in short, he fried EVERYTHING.

Just make sure you get help from someone who knows what he's doing, and not just showing off.

BTW: I said it was EASY, as easy as driving a sports car over 140 MPH! I didn't mean it was SIMPLE... there's a big difference. It is VERY time consuming. Especially when done right. Take your time.