Marine Aquarium 3 Rumors and Speculation - Page 32

Tiny Turtle · 05-14-2007, 07:13 PM

Yep. It's like the Koi screensaver someone posted about a few weeks back. They added refraction to the water and it looked worse with it turned on but still was left in the final product becaus it was another feature...

FishyBusiness · 05-14-2007, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by feldon31:

Jim is writing Marine Aquarium 3 in DirectX 8 to run on millions of computers, not on a $400 DirectX 10 card. But maybe if Jim wants to play EQ2. I'd rather he play EQ2 after MA3 comes out.

Yeah, if he made a DX 10 aquarium, than only 0.1% of the world's population that has a computer would be able to buy Jim's aquarium.

Jim Sachs · 05-14-2007, 11:23 PM

Reflective scales - If I find any worthy saltwater species that need this effect, then I'll implement it. In the current version, the only critter that's shiny is the Copper-Banded Butterflyfish, and I've always been able to handle its shine using specular lighting. The simple fact is that nearly all the saltwater fish that people deem worthy of putting in an aquarium are as flat as velvet. No shine, no visible scales. In my Freshwater program, all the fish are shiny. In fact, the Cardinal Tetras have three types of shine - for the body, the red, and the blue-green stripe.

There are a couple of effects for which I do plan to use pixel shaders. I will be experimenting with motion-blur, especially for the bubbles. My current monitor is able to clearly freeze-frame the bubbles, which now rise much faster than they did in old version. This leads to a strobe-like impression, which detracts slightly from the overall realism. A small amount of motion-blur may be effective in curing this.

drfish · 05-15-2007, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by FishyBusiness:

Yeah, if he made a DX 10 aquarium, than only 0.1% of the world's population that has a computer would be able to buy Jim's aquarium.

Come on, why are we being so dramatic? I keep saying scalability, doing it DX10 only would be suicide, no one is saying he should do that.

Sorry, I'm tense...

feldon34 · 05-15-2007, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

Ok, but how come the screenshots in the links I posted have extremely boring appearances in the DX6 & DX7 versions?
I dunno about Alan's.

Game developers have to make a choice.

Do they spend a lot of time writing software emulation to do effects that DX8 and DX9 can do on-the-card?

There's a lot of variables in play, such as, if you try to guess what computer the typical user of a DX7 card will have and if it will be able to handle the native DX7 graphics plus some software emulation that tries to show some of the goodies provided by DX8 and DX9.

In the case of Marine Aquarium, the concern is not overtaxing the CPU or video card in most cases, since it runs on some pretty low end hardware. The concern is whether people have DirectX 9 cards and DirectX 9 even installed. So I think it's a good fit for MA3 to do some of the graphical effects on DX8 that are freebies in DX9 and DX10 by writing some extra code.

I'm glad to hear that Jim had gotten the Cardinal Tetras the proper reflection in FA. Most people either don't realize, or are daunted by the fact that Cardinal Tetras have 3 different types of reflective scales. Maybe some day I will get to see it in motion.

Jim Sachs · 05-15-2007, 09:22 AM

The main difference between DX8 and later versions is just more Vertex and Pixel Shader registers in the Video hardware. I doubt if I'll come anywhere near using all the available registers in DX8.

As I said, I'm totally open to incorporating advanced techniques, if they are actually needed (and assuming I can understand them). But so far it's kind of like telling Da Vinci, "Hey Leonardo, forget oils - today you could be painting with fluorescent glitter paint on velvet!"

drfish · 05-15-2007, 11:09 AM

Understood. I'll be good.

Tiny Turtle · 05-15-2007, 01:48 PM

Morg,
Ok. And DA runs on DX8.1 according to Alan.

Frank,
1. MA3 wouldn't be released today, but more likely in early 2008 - that allows for a lot better penetration of the market for DX10 capable systems.

2. The quoted percentage is not interesting as such a large share of the world's PCs aren't likely buyers of MA. Would you like to venture an estimate of how many of the potential MA3 buyers will have a DX10 capable system?

3. Nobody said anything about a DX10 only MA3. It was only talk about using features if they were available, just like if your card can't handle AA and/or a high resolution you won't be able to use it.

Jim,
A big ok on the reflections.

Doc,
So, what else is up?

Jim Sachs · 05-15-2007, 05:28 PM

TT - All correct, except that MA3 will be released in 2007.

Tiny Turtle · 05-15-2007, 05:41 PM

I *love* being wrong!

patscarr · 05-15-2007, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

TT - All correct, except that MA3 will be released in 2007.

Wow! Another hint at a release date! I'm flabergasted!

drfish · 05-15-2007, 07:59 PM

October, October, October!!!

Tiny Turtle · 05-15-2007, 08:37 PM

Jim,
Are you considering incorporating something along the lines of Ronald's Fish Picker in MA3?

Jim Sachs · 05-15-2007, 09:07 PM

I don't remember exactly what it looked like, but it seems like the current interface is fairly close. Drag and drop the desired fish in each slot. The main difference is the max number of fish will be greater.

feldon34 · 05-16-2007, 07:43 AM

The main feature of Ronald's fish picker, at least to my knowledge, was cycling the RANDOM fish on an interval. One of those features that Prolific was going to integrate into their unified Settings panel.

nicksteel · 05-17-2007, 09:55 AM

"TT - All correct, except that MA3 will be released in 2007."

"The main difference is the max number of fish will be greater."

Been a long time since a MA release has been in the foreseeable future. Me and my newer computer are really looking forward to it!

Jim Sachs · 05-17-2007, 10:48 AM

Definitely in 2007. This is 2005, right?

Jav400 · 05-17-2007, 11:05 AM

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

nicksteel · 05-17-2007, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Definitely in 2007. This is 2005, right?

Earth to Jim..................................

nicksteel · 05-17-2007, 11:15 AM

Chorus:

Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again

05-14-2007, 07:13 PM	#621
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Yep. It's like the Koi screensaver someone posted about a few weeks back. They added refraction to the water and it looked worse with it turned on but still was left in the final product becaus it was another feature... Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

05-14-2007, 08:45 PM	#622
FishyBusiness Registered Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 2,206	Originally posted by feldon31: Jim is writing Marine Aquarium 3 in DirectX 8 to run on millions of computers, not on a $400 DirectX 10 card. But maybe if Jim wants to play EQ2. I'd rather he play EQ2 after MA3 comes out. Yeah, if he made a DX 10 aquarium, than only 0.1% of the world's population that has a computer would be able to buy Jim's aquarium. Frank

05-14-2007, 11:23 PM	#623
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	Reflective scales - If I find any worthy saltwater species that need this effect, then I'll implement it. In the current version, the only critter that's shiny is the Copper-Banded Butterflyfish, and I've always been able to handle its shine using specular lighting. The simple fact is that nearly all the saltwater fish that people deem worthy of putting in an aquarium are as flat as velvet. No shine, no visible scales. In my Freshwater program, all the fish are shiny. In fact, the Cardinal Tetras have three types of shine - for the body, the red, and the blue-green stripe. There are a couple of effects for which I do plan to use pixel shaders. I will be experimenting with motion-blur, especially for the bubbles. My current monitor is able to clearly freeze-frame the bubbles, which now rise much faster than they did in old version. This leads to a strobe-like impression, which detracts slightly from the overall realism. A small amount of motion-blur may be effective in curing this. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-15-2007, 06:49 AM	#624
drfish the Doc Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Zeeland, MI Posts: 5,353	Originally posted by FishyBusiness: Yeah, if he made a DX 10 aquarium, than only 0.1% of the world's population that has a computer would be able to buy Jim's aquarium. Come on, why are we being so dramatic? I keep saying scalability, doing it DX10 only would be suicide, no one is saying he should do that. Sorry, I'm tense... I don't watch commercials.

05-15-2007, 07:01 AM	#625
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle: Ok, but how come the screenshots in the links I posted have extremely boring appearances in the DX6 & DX7 versions? I dunno about Alan's. Game developers have to make a choice. Do they spend a lot of time writing software emulation to do effects that DX8 and DX9 can do on-the-card? There's a lot of variables in play, such as, if you try to guess what computer the typical user of a DX7 card will have and if it will be able to handle the native DX7 graphics plus some software emulation that tries to show some of the goodies provided by DX8 and DX9. In the case of Marine Aquarium, the concern is not overtaxing the CPU or video card in most cases, since it runs on some pretty low end hardware. The concern is whether people have DirectX 9 cards and DirectX 9 even installed. So I think it's a good fit for MA3 to do some of the graphical effects on DX8 that are freebies in DX9 and DX10 by writing some extra code. I'm glad to hear that Jim had gotten the Cardinal Tetras the proper reflection in FA. Most people either don't realize, or are daunted by the fact that Cardinal Tetras have 3 different types of reflective scales. Maybe some day I will get to see it in motion. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-15-2007, 09:22 AM	#626
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	The main difference between DX8 and later versions is just more Vertex and Pixel Shader registers in the Video hardware. I doubt if I'll come anywhere near using all the available registers in DX8. As I said, I'm totally open to incorporating advanced techniques, if they are actually needed (and assuming I can understand them). But so far it's kind of like telling Da Vinci, "Hey Leonardo, forget oils - today you could be painting with fluorescent glitter paint on velvet!" Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-15-2007, 11:09 AM	#627
drfish the Doc Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Zeeland, MI Posts: 5,353	Understood. I'll be good. I don't watch commercials.

05-15-2007, 01:48 PM	#628
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Morg, Ok. And DA runs on DX8.1 according to Alan. Frank, 1. MA3 wouldn't be released today, but more likely in early 2008 - that allows for a lot better penetration of the market for DX10 capable systems. 2. The quoted percentage is not interesting as such a large share of the world's PCs aren't likely buyers of MA. Would you like to venture an estimate of how many of the potential MA3 buyers will have a DX10 capable system? 3. Nobody said anything about a DX10 only MA3. It was only talk about using features if they were available, just like if your card can't handle AA and/or a high resolution you won't be able to use it. Jim, A big ok on the reflections. Doc, So, what else is up? Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

05-15-2007, 05:28 PM	#629
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	TT - All correct, except that MA3 will be released in 2007. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-15-2007, 05:41 PM	#630
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	I love being wrong! Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

05-15-2007, 06:11 PM	#631
patscarr Pet Shark Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Back in Buffalo Posts: 5,454	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: TT - All correct, except that MA3 will be released in 2007. Wow! Another hint at a release date! I'm flabergasted! Patrick

05-15-2007, 07:59 PM	#632
drfish the Doc Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Zeeland, MI Posts: 5,353	October, October, October!!! I don't watch commercials.

05-15-2007, 08:37 PM	#633
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Jim, Are you considering incorporating something along the lines of Ronald's Fish Picker in MA3? Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

05-15-2007, 09:07 PM	#634
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	I don't remember exactly what it looked like, but it seems like the current interface is fairly close. Drag and drop the desired fish in each slot. The main difference is the max number of fish will be greater. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-16-2007, 07:43 AM	#635
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	The main feature of Ronald's fish picker, at least to my knowledge, was cycling the RANDOM fish on an interval. One of those features that Prolific was going to integrate into their unified Settings panel. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-17-2007, 09:55 AM	#636
nicksteel Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mississippi (and no, I don't watch FOX!) Posts: 244	Sooner each day "TT - All correct, except that MA3 will be released in 2007." "The main difference is the max number of fish will be greater." Been a long time since a MA release has been in the foreseeable future. Me and my newer computer are really looking forward to it!

05-17-2007, 10:48 AM	#637
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	Definitely in 2007. This is 2005, right? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-17-2007, 11:05 AM	#638
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

05-17-2007, 11:10 AM	#639
nicksteel Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mississippi (and no, I don't watch FOX!) Posts: 244	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Definitely in 2007. This is 2005, right? Earth to Jim..................................

05-17-2007, 11:15 AM	#640
nicksteel Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mississippi (and no, I don't watch FOX!) Posts: 244	Chorus: Let's do the Time Warp again Let's do the Time Warp again