Jaggies again - Page 2

JimO'Connor · 04-21-2003, 05:12 PM

Jim Sachs is busy writing new product, like Freshwater aquarium. He doesn't have much to do with the Mac side, other than offering useful insights from time to time, so we aren't taking many of his cycles. Apple looked like they were hot and heavy on the problem but then silence fell...

mrtew · 05-07-2003, 05:15 AM

Darnit; 10.2.6 came out today with modifications to OpenGL and my hopes for Jaggie-free fish instantly shot up, and were dashed again. So frustrating.

Michael Babin · 05-07-2003, 08:22 AM

Sorry to hear that 10.2.6 doesn't offer any improvement. Nearly every 10.2.x release has mentioned fixes/improvements in OpenGL, although there hasn't been much, if any, information available (even in developer Tech Notes) as to what was changed. I e-mailed a complaint to Apple's Tech Support people for one of these updates where the announcement of the release referred to fixes/improvements in OpenGL, but the Knowledge Base article describing the release (linked to from the release announcement and/or download page) did not even contain the string "OpenGL".

We've opened a developer technical support incident (an official request for support) with Apple on this problem, although we have not heard back from them for a couple of weeks now. When we have something useful to report, we'll try to communicate it here in a timely fashion.

iGreg · 05-11-2003, 10:15 AM

Yup, I just installed MA 2 and I noticed the jaggy appearance immediately.

Considering OS X (and Jaguar in particular) is supposed to excel in graphics/video this is disconcerting.

I use OS X almost 100% of the time, NOT because I think it is such a vast improvement over OS 9 but because that is where Apple is going. Except for stability, I have always found OS9 superior (particularly in speed, trouble-shooting, and in the user-interface/GUI).

I've been using OS X continuosly for about a year, and am NOT as happy as I was under OS 9.

P.S. What is this V-Sync thing?

JimO'Connor · 05-11-2003, 01:56 PM

The screen capture utility creates artifacts which look the same as swapping the graphics buffers while the video card is trying to draw -- which causes half of one fame and half of the next frame to be onscreen at the same time.

I've delivered Apple a build without the background or starfish so that they can see just the fish. We'll see what they say. DTS is good. I have friends who worked DTS at Apple for many years, and they are pretty sharp people.

As to OS 9 vs OS X -- OS 9 uses screen space more effectively, so a 9" diagonal screen is cramped but usable and a 15" display is roomy. On OS X a 15" display is cramped and barely useable. The Apple menu of OS 9 is vastly superior to the dock. Packages are a royal pain in the neck. The GUI veneer over UNIX is not at all complete when you have to use the terminal to delete stubborn files... There are some advantages as far as writing software is concerned but the user experience is not as good yet, in my opinion.

However, Apple will get there.

mrtew · 05-11-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by JimO'Connor
I've delivered Apple a build without the background or starfish so that they can see just the fish.

WOW! That is EXACTLY what I want! Please! The background is kindof OK, but it's really boring and not really believable after a while and doesn't really add anything to the saver for me. Please make this version available for download. I can sortof understand Jim not wanting to allow users to have the fish swim over a photograph of our choosing, but having only fish on the screen can't be a problem can it? I would LOVE that. Please? (leave the starfish in though if you want... he's cool!)

Tiny Turtle · 05-12-2003, 01:45 AM

I've expressed similar ideas over for the PC version. Glad to see there's more interest in this.

/Tiny Simplicity

Jim Sachs · 05-12-2003, 09:01 AM

So the starfish would just float where the gravel used to be?

Tiny Turtle · 05-12-2003, 10:01 AM

Ok, so I wished for some sand for the poor sod to crawl across (which would also rule out any need for reflections in a glass floor)

/Tiny Coral

Jim Sachs · 05-12-2003, 10:16 AM

That would mean creating a set of background tiles which contain only an image of sand. A lot of work, and probably won't happen.

mrtew · 05-12-2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
So the starfish would just float where the gravel used to be?

Actually I was thinking that he could just stay on the glass, but you could just release the version that you already have done with no starfish if that would be easier! You could even just email it to me if you don't want to do a release or anything!!! :-] hint hint

feldon34 · 05-12-2003, 08:45 PM

If Jim sincerely wanted a version like this released, you know that the gravel/sand floor would be completed in some artistic, "finished-looking" way.

Jim Sachs · 05-12-2003, 09:22 PM

That's Jim O. who did a debugging version with no coral, not me.

mrtew · 05-12-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by feldon27
If Jim sincerely wanted a version like this released, you know that the gravel/sand floor would be completed in some artistic, "finished-looking" way.

Yeah, but the whole point of a version like this IMHO is to NOT have a floor.... just the fish swimming around without the 'setting'. That's what I am talking about! And hopefully it could still do the wireframe thing too! If this is too much to hope for then I guess I could 'settle' for the live 3D coral that I've been hearing about for a while now :-]

feldon34 · 05-13-2003, 08:52 AM

I believe that the 3D coral will start out looking pretty similar to the coral we have now, with a few live corals and elements within it. I could be wrong though.

Michael Babin · 05-13-2003, 02:49 PM

Would users who are seeing the "jaggies" problem on Mac OS X please send an Apple System Profiler report to me via e-mail (mbabin@orderndev.com). Apple requested the reports, so I will forward these reports (including one from my own system, where I see the problem) to them for analysis. Thanks in advance.

mrtew · 05-13-2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Michael Babin
Would users who are seeing the "jaggies" problem on Mac OS X please send an Apple System Profiler report to me via e-mail (mbabin@orderndev.com). Apple requested the reports, so I will forward these reports (including one from my own system, where I see the problem) to them for analysis. Thanks in advance.

I sure will, but I have to ask.... is there anyone who's compared the OS9 and OSX versions that HASN'T seen the jaggies?

Michael Babin · 05-13-2003, 11:17 PM

I'm not sure. I've seen it, JimO has seen it, several other users have noted the problem on their machines. The DTS engineer says he's run MA 2 on two machines and didn't notice the "jaggies", but then ran it again on one of those machines and saw the problem. He's asked for profiles from affected users (those who've noticed it) and we're trying to get them for him. I got yours today and included it in the batch we're putting together. Thanks for sending it.

mrtew · 05-14-2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Michael Babin
I'm not sure. I've seen it, JimO has seen it, several other users have noted the problem on their machines. The DTS engineer says he's run MA 2 on two machines and didn't notice the "jaggies", but then ran it again on one of those machines and saw the problem.

Yeah, I'm not talking about people that didn't 'notice it', because to be honest it is not the kind of thing that most people would 'notice'. I ran MA for several months every day without noticing it after Jaguar came out.... I am not even totally sure that it wasn't there in 10.1. I am talking about people that have actually compared the OSX and OS9 version and found no difference. Once you look at the OS9 version it become crystal clear how messed up the OSX version is an you can't help but notice every time you run it. Even the Windoze version looks better :-] I ask because I have tried MA on every Mac I have seen it on.... at least 7 of them, ranging from old G3 iMacs to new TiBooks and dual processor G4's and and every single one has the exact same Jaggies. If there is any Mac that doesn't have them I am going to buy it on eBay and use it just for MA!

Polcamilla · 05-14-2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Michael Babin
Would users who are seeing the "jaggies" problem on Mac OS X please send an Apple System Profiler report to me via e-mail (mbabin@orderndev.com).

Uh----do you just mean cutting and pasting the info inthe Apple System Profiler System Profile? Or is there some kind of log file that I should be attaching to an email?

04-21-2003, 05:12 PM	#21
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	Jim Sachs is busy writing new product, like Freshwater aquarium. He doesn't have much to do with the Mac side, other than offering useful insights from time to time, so we aren't taking many of his cycles. Apple looked like they were hot and heavy on the problem but then silence fell... Jim O'Connor Order N Development

05-07-2003, 05:15 AM	#22
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Darnit; 10.2.6 came out today with modifications to OpenGL and my hopes for Jaggie-free fish instantly shot up, and were dashed again. So frustrating. mrtew

05-11-2003, 10:15 AM	#24
iGreg Registered Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2	Yup, I just installed MA 2 and I noticed the jaggy appearance immediately. Considering OS X (and Jaguar in particular) is supposed to excel in graphics/video this is disconcerting. I use OS X almost 100% of the time, NOT because I think it is such a vast improvement over OS 9 but because that is where Apple is going. Except for stability, I have always found OS9 superior (particularly in speed, trouble-shooting, and in the user-interface/GUI). I've been using OS X continuosly for about a year, and am NOT as happy as I was under OS 9. P.S. What is this V-Sync thing? iGreg iMac G3 500 MHz, 384MB RAM. iBookSE 466 MHz, 320MB RAM. OS 10.2.6.

05-11-2003, 01:56 PM	#25
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	The screen capture utility creates artifacts which look the same as swapping the graphics buffers while the video card is trying to draw -- which causes half of one fame and half of the next frame to be onscreen at the same time. I've delivered Apple a build without the background or starfish so that they can see just the fish. We'll see what they say. DTS is good. I have friends who worked DTS at Apple for many years, and they are pretty sharp people. As to OS 9 vs OS X -- OS 9 uses screen space more effectively, so a 9" diagonal screen is cramped but usable and a 15" display is roomy. On OS X a 15" display is cramped and barely useable. The Apple menu of OS 9 is vastly superior to the dock. Packages are a royal pain in the neck. The GUI veneer over UNIX is not at all complete when you have to use the terminal to delete stubborn files... There are some advantages as far as writing software is concerned but the user experience is not as good yet, in my opinion. However, Apple will get there. Jim O'Connor Order N Development

05-11-2003, 06:18 PM	#26
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by JimO'Connor I've delivered Apple a build without the background or starfish so that they can see just the fish. WOW! That is EXACTLY what I want! Please! The background is kindof OK, but it's really boring and not really believable after a while and doesn't really add anything to the saver for me. Please make this version available for download. I can sortof understand Jim not wanting to allow users to have the fish swim over a photograph of our choosing, but having only fish on the screen can't be a problem can it? I would LOVE that. Please? (leave the starfish in though if you want... he's cool!) mrtew

05-07-2003, 08:22 AM	#23
Michael Babin Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rowlett, Texas Posts: 199	Sorry to hear that 10.2.6 doesn't offer any improvement. Nearly every 10.2.x release has mentioned fixes/improvements in OpenGL, although there hasn't been much, if any, information available (even in developer Tech Notes) as to what was changed. I e-mailed a complaint to Apple's Tech Support people for one of these updates where the announcement of the release referred to fixes/improvements in OpenGL, but the Knowledge Base article describing the release (linked to from the release announcement and/or download page) did not even contain the string "OpenGL". We've opened a developer technical support incident (an official request for support) with Apple on this problem, although we have not heard back from them for a couple of weeks now. When we have something useful to report, we'll try to communicate it here in a timely fashion.

05-12-2003, 01:45 AM	#27
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	I've expressed similar ideas over for the PC version. Glad to see there's more interest in this. /Tiny Simplicity Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

05-12-2003, 09:01 AM	#28
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	So the starfish would just float where the gravel used to be? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-12-2003, 10:01 AM	#29
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Ok, so I wished for some sand for the poor sod to crawl across (which would also rule out any need for reflections in a glass floor) /Tiny Coral Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

05-12-2003, 10:16 AM	#30
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	That would mean creating a set of background tiles which contain only an image of sand. A lot of work, and probably won't happen. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-12-2003, 05:25 PM	#31
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by Jim Sachs So the starfish would just float where the gravel used to be? Actually I was thinking that he could just stay on the glass, but you could just release the version that you already have done with no starfish if that would be easier! You could even just email it to me if you don't want to do a release or anything!!! :-] hint hint mrtew

05-12-2003, 08:45 PM	#32
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	If Jim sincerely wanted a version like this released, you know that the gravel/sand floor would be completed in some artistic, "finished-looking" way. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-12-2003, 09:22 PM	#33
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	That's Jim O. who did a debugging version with no coral, not me. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-12-2003, 09:25 PM	#34
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by feldon27 If Jim sincerely wanted a version like this released, you know that the gravel/sand floor would be completed in some artistic, "finished-looking" way. Yeah, but the whole point of a version like this IMHO is to NOT have a floor.... just the fish swimming around without the 'setting'. That's what I am talking about! And hopefully it could still do the wireframe thing too! If this is too much to hope for then I guess I could 'settle' for the live 3D coral that I've been hearing about for a while now :-] mrtew

05-13-2003, 08:52 AM	#35
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	I believe that the 3D coral will start out looking pretty similar to the coral we have now, with a few live corals and elements within it. I could be wrong though. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-13-2003, 02:49 PM	#36
Michael Babin Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rowlett, Texas Posts: 199	Would users who are seeing the "jaggies" problem on Mac OS X please send an Apple System Profiler report to me via e-mail (mbabin@orderndev.com). Apple requested the reports, so I will forward these reports (including one from my own system, where I see the problem) to them for analysis. Thanks in advance.

05-13-2003, 05:49 PM	#37
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by Michael Babin Would users who are seeing the "jaggies" problem on Mac OS X please send an Apple System Profiler report to me via e-mail (mbabin@orderndev.com). Apple requested the reports, so I will forward these reports (including one from my own system, where I see the problem) to them for analysis. Thanks in advance. I sure will, but I have to ask.... is there anyone who's compared the OS9 and OSX versions that HASN'T seen the jaggies? mrtew Last edited by mrtew; 05-13-2003 at 06:58 PM.

05-13-2003, 11:17 PM	#38
Michael Babin Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rowlett, Texas Posts: 199	I'm not sure. I've seen it, JimO has seen it, several other users have noted the problem on their machines. The DTS engineer says he's run MA 2 on two machines and didn't notice the "jaggies", but then ran it again on one of those machines and saw the problem. He's asked for profiles from affected users (those who've noticed it) and we're trying to get them for him. I got yours today and included it in the batch we're putting together. Thanks for sending it.

05-14-2003, 05:06 AM	#39
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by Michael Babin I'm not sure. I've seen it, JimO has seen it, several other users have noted the problem on their machines. The DTS engineer says he's run MA 2 on two machines and didn't notice the "jaggies", but then ran it again on one of those machines and saw the problem. Yeah, I'm not talking about people that didn't 'notice it', because to be honest it is not the kind of thing that most people would 'notice'. I ran MA for several months every day without noticing it after Jaguar came out.... I am not even totally sure that it wasn't there in 10.1. I am talking about people that have actually compared the OSX and OS9 version and found no difference. Once you look at the OS9 version it become crystal clear how messed up the OSX version is an you can't help but notice every time you run it. Even the Windoze version looks better :-] I ask because I have tried MA on every Mac I have seen it on.... at least 7 of them, ranging from old G3 iMacs to new TiBooks and dual processor G4's and and every single one has the exact same Jaggies. If there is any Mac that doesn't have them I am going to buy it on eBay and use it just for MA! mrtew

05-14-2003, 07:15 PM	#40
Polcamilla Registered Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 31	Originally posted by Michael Babin Would users who are seeing the "jaggies" problem on Mac OS X please send an Apple System Profiler report to me via e-mail (mbabin@orderndev.com). Uh----do you just mean cutting and pasting the info inthe Apple System Profiler System Profile? Or is there some kind of log file that I should be attaching to an email?