cartoon looking

Submariner · 11-16-2003, 10:52 AM

On Jim's aquarium the fish look real. On every other screensaver aquarium that I have tried
the fish look like cartoon drawings. Some are drawn very well but just don't look like they have
weight to them. I was wondering if anyone knows why. Is it because Jim uses lightwave and others
use inexpensive program? Just curious

Thanks

Marian Nichols · 11-16-2003, 11:01 AM

How? I don't know, Why? because Jim takes the time to do as prefect job as is humanly possible, his creation is not a thrown together product, made just to bring in money. His work, to Jim and thoes of us who appreicate it, consider it art, like the Mona Lisa, and others of great artist. Just my point of view.

feldon34 · 11-16-2003, 01:29 PM

It's because Jim Sachs is a digital artist.

He photographed all the fish himself and uses a lot of specular lighting and other lighting effects to make the fish realistic.

Regarding the imitators, it's a lack of talent, not software, as I'd guess some of the competitors are using liberated copies of the 3D programs.

50 people can go to a public aquarium and look at fish swimming, but Jim seems to be one of the few who can see which parts of the appearance and movement are vital for realism and which parts can be discarded.

I'm sure we've seen special effects, computer games, screen savers where a lot of time was spent, but the developer put all their time into the wrong elements, ignoring the ones most vital to realism.

Jim Sachs · 11-16-2003, 03:10 PM

Well, thanks for the compliment, but I still consider the fish to be only about halfway towards the realism I hope to achieve.

One of the points I used to make in my seminars was not to feel obligated to use absolutely every effect a computer has available just because you can. For example, in another part of this Forum, a lot of attention has been drawn to the fact that another aquarium screensaver is finally using specular effects. I haven't had a chance to take a look yet, but someone mentioned specular on a blue tang. Most saltwater fish have very non-reflective, almost velvety exteriors, and that species is certainly one of them.

Put several of these minor issues into the artwork, and the fish takes on a cartoony look. The casual observer might not be able to tell you why, only that it's a little "off".

cjmaddy · 11-16-2003, 04:38 PM

.... but someone mentioned specular on a blue tang. Most saltwater fish have very non-reflective, almost velvety exteriors, and that species is certainly one of them.

OK, - I admit it! ... Guilty as charged!

... It was me!

Jim, - Is it possible to explain in simple terms to we mere mortals, how specular lighting works, isn't it an all or nothing situation? - Or can it be applied to some fish/surfaces and not others? - I know that specular means: mirrorlike; having a speculum; by reflection. - but I have no idea how this is achieved as the fish moves and changes direction. Is it applied to each individual fish, or to the tank as a whole?

All I can say about AquaReal is that the whole presentation looks more realistic, (the fish, NOT the background!), with specular lighting and calc normals ON, than with them OFF. - A little cartoon-like, maybe, but not as bad as some that shall remain nameless.

But I have always stated that I recognise that no one has yet achieved your standard of reality! - But people like AquaReal are getting closer with each version. .... IMHO!

Jim Sachs · 11-16-2003, 06:19 PM

In the computer graphics world, specular refers to the bright spot of light on a shiny object. With all modern video cards, the effect can be turned on or off (or adjusted) for each vertex in a 3D object. To avoid using too many clock cycles, it is usually set to a desired state and left that way while painting all the vertices of each SURFACE. For example, if the computer reached the point where it was about to draw the surface LEFT_EYE of a Yellow Tang, I would send the card the following instructions:

Turn on Specular
Set the Specular color to white (yes, you could have any color speculars, even black)
Set the specular strength (the amount of white mixed with the underlying color) to about 30%
Set the specular power (the size of the point of light) to about 32 (the bigger the number, the smaller the point of light).

The card then uses these numbers in combination with angle of any lights which are enabled and the surface normal for each vertex to determine how much of the specular color to mix with the color of that vertex.

The fact that the card can do all of these complex floating-point calculations (and MANY others) for each vertex in each polygon in each surface in each object, and do it all 60 or more times every second just leaves me in awe of today's graphics hardware.

feldon34 · 11-16-2003, 06:23 PM

I'm sure Jim will answer with a more robust answer than I will, but I believe that...

Specular is the quality of the light reflecting off an object directly at you. More specifically, the vertex normals (hi Cliff!) pointing more or less at you. This specular quality is very important in parlaying realism.

In the old games, we'd see a crumpled basketball jersey on a player with the crumples "highlighted" no matter what angle the player was facing. Very unrealistic. In new games with specular highlights, only the parts facing us are shiny and it greatly improves this realism.

Specular light has sharpness/dullness, brightness, and color properties. Different combinations of the 3 can make us believe that a 3D object is actually made of cloth, plastic, glass, metal, etc. It is the biggest hint which can be given as to an object's actual makeup.

Jim uses a procedural specular, which guess which parts of the image should be shiny and which parts aren't. I believe it looks at the pixels in the texture and decides which should be shiny.

If you look at the Copperband Butterfly, it has a sharply defined, very bright, white-copper specular highlight. The Royal Gramma has a diffuse (soft), not quite as bright, reddish specular highlight. The Wimplefish has a diffuse, white specular which only really shows up on the black parts of its skin.

More advanced specular lighting is sometimes needed. This is done in the form of a specular map, which explicitly tells the 3D engine how each texture is affected by ambient light, giving the 3D artist complete control.

The realism of the Goldfish Aquarium has been lacking for me because the scales are not reflective. To my knowledge, the Goldfish Aquarium is not using any kind of specular lighting at all. Reichart assures me that adding full specular lighting to the Goldfish is a priority.

To see what incredible effects can be done with bump maps and specular maps, look at the game "Halo" for XBox.

James · 11-16-2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs

Turn on Specular
Set the Specular color to white (yes, you could have any color speculars, even black)
Set the specular strength (the amount of white mixed with the underlying color) to about 30%
Set the specular power (the size of the point of light) to about 32 (the bigger the number, the smaller the point of light).

Jim, does the specular strength here means the reflection coefficient and the specular power means the sharpness, in terms of OpenGL coding? (I don't use DirectX do I'm not sure)..

specular lighting is actually a Phong Model of surface reflectance, intend for surface smoothing simulation, (unlike the Lambertian model which is purely equal diffuse lighting model)...

Lighting is a big factor for realism but don't forgot the movement of the fish also aided a lot! The fish in AquaReal has mouth and gill moves, makes the fish more realistic and live like. The difference can be seen in MA, the lionfish is more realistic than other fish because it breaths!!!

Yellow Tang · 11-16-2003, 11:57 PM

That's a very interesting topic and perfectly explained! Thank you all for bringing some light into this.

Jim Sachs · 11-17-2003, 12:51 AM

James -

Yes to both your questions, though I simplified the explanation for clarity.

cjmaddy · 11-17-2003, 06:04 AM

Thanks to Jim and Morgan for, as YT nicely puts it, - shining some light on this subject!

I am assuming that the Specular slider in AquaReal (I have it set to 60%), is therefore determining the 'Specular strength' - yes? .... And although it improves the overall reality of ALL the fish (IMO), - it would be more correct to have fish such as the Blue Tang, with little or no specular applied!

My liking for using a degree of Unsharp Mask in some situations, also seems to be partly explained here!

James · 11-17-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
James -

Yes to both your questions, though I simplified the explanation for clarity.

Thank you Jim ! Just wondering does the Direct X uses the same terminology like OpenGL?
I'm really lokking forward that some day I'll learn programming in Direct X.

Originally posted by cjmaddy
Thanks to Jim and Morgan for, as YT nicely puts it, - shining some light on this subject!

I am assuming that the Specular slider in AquaReal (I have it set to 60%), is therefore determining the 'Specular strength' - yes? .... And although it improves the overall reality of ALL the fish (IMO), - it would be more correct to have fish such as the Blue Tang, with little or no specular applied!

My liking for using a degree of Unsharp Mask in some situations, also seems to be partly explained here!

Cliff, I'm not so sure abou that.....because the specular reflection coefficient is usually different on difference material when luminate objects in 3D scene, I'll check that out with Senivy later.

Jim Sachs · 11-18-2003, 12:45 AM

James - No, DirectX uses different terminolgy than OpenGL.

11-16-2003, 10:52 AM	#1
Submariner Registered Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 901	cartoon looking On Jim's aquarium the fish look real. On every other screensaver aquarium that I have tried the fish look like cartoon drawings. Some are drawn very well but just don't look like they have weight to them. I was wondering if anyone knows why. Is it because Jim uses lightwave and others use inexpensive program? Just curious Thanks

11-16-2003, 11:01 AM	#2
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	How? I don't know, Why? because Jim takes the time to do as prefect job as is humanly possible, his creation is not a thrown together product, made just to bring in money. His work, to Jim and thoes of us who appreicate it, consider it art, like the Mona Lisa, and others of great artist. Just my point of view. Write paranormal mysteries. Six books so far.

11-16-2003, 01:29 PM	#3
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	It's because Jim Sachs is a digital artist. He photographed all the fish himself and uses a lot of specular lighting and other lighting effects to make the fish realistic. Regarding the imitators, it's a lack of talent, not software, as I'd guess some of the competitors are using liberated copies of the 3D programs. 50 people can go to a public aquarium and look at fish swimming, but Jim seems to be one of the few who can see which parts of the appearance and movement are vital for realism and which parts can be discarded. I'm sure we've seen special effects, computer games, screen savers where a lot of time was spent, but the developer put all their time into the wrong elements, ignoring the ones most vital to realism. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

11-16-2003, 03:10 PM	#4
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	Well, thanks for the compliment, but I still consider the fish to be only about halfway towards the realism I hope to achieve. One of the points I used to make in my seminars was not to feel obligated to use absolutely every effect a computer has available just because you can. For example, in another part of this Forum, a lot of attention has been drawn to the fact that another aquarium screensaver is finally using specular effects. I haven't had a chance to take a look yet, but someone mentioned specular on a blue tang. Most saltwater fish have very non-reflective, almost velvety exteriors, and that species is certainly one of them. Put several of these minor issues into the artwork, and the fish takes on a cartoony look. The casual observer might not be able to tell you why, only that it's a little "off". Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

11-16-2003, 06:19 PM	#6
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	In the computer graphics world, specular refers to the bright spot of light on a shiny object. With all modern video cards, the effect can be turned on or off (or adjusted) for each vertex in a 3D object. To avoid using too many clock cycles, it is usually set to a desired state and left that way while painting all the vertices of each SURFACE. For example, if the computer reached the point where it was about to draw the surface LEFT_EYE of a Yellow Tang, I would send the card the following instructions: Turn on Specular Set the Specular color to white (yes, you could have any color speculars, even black) Set the specular strength (the amount of white mixed with the underlying color) to about 30% Set the specular power (the size of the point of light) to about 32 (the bigger the number, the smaller the point of light). The card then uses these numbers in combination with angle of any lights which are enabled and the surface normal for each vertex to determine how much of the specular color to mix with the color of that vertex. The fact that the card can do all of these complex floating-point calculations (and MANY others) for each vertex in each polygon in each surface in each object, and do it all 60 or more times every second just leaves me in awe of today's graphics hardware. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

11-16-2003, 04:38 PM	#5
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	.... but someone mentioned specular on a blue tang. Most saltwater fish have very non-reflective, almost velvety exteriors, and that species is certainly one of them. OK, - I admit it! ... Guilty as charged! ... It was me! Jim, - Is it possible to explain in simple terms to we mere mortals, how specular lighting works, isn't it an all or nothing situation? - Or can it be applied to some fish/surfaces and not others? - I know that specular means: mirrorlike; having a speculum; by reflection. - but I have no idea how this is achieved as the fish moves and changes direction. Is it applied to each individual fish, or to the tank as a whole? All I can say about AquaReal is that the whole presentation looks more realistic, (the fish, NOT the background!), with specular lighting and calc normals ON, than with them OFF. - A little cartoon-like, maybe, but not as bad as some that shall remain nameless. But I have always stated that I recognise that no one has yet achieved your standard of reality! - But people like AquaReal are getting closer with each version. .... IMHO!

11-16-2003, 06:23 PM	#7
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	I'm sure Jim will answer with a more robust answer than I will, but I believe that... Specular is the quality of the light reflecting off an object directly at you. More specifically, the vertex normals (hi Cliff!) pointing more or less at you. This specular quality is very important in parlaying realism. In the old games, we'd see a crumpled basketball jersey on a player with the crumples "highlighted" no matter what angle the player was facing. Very unrealistic. In new games with specular highlights, only the parts facing us are shiny and it greatly improves this realism. Specular light has sharpness/dullness, brightness, and color properties. Different combinations of the 3 can make us believe that a 3D object is actually made of cloth, plastic, glass, metal, etc. It is the biggest hint which can be given as to an object's actual makeup. Jim uses a procedural specular, which guess which parts of the image should be shiny and which parts aren't. I believe it looks at the pixels in the texture and decides which should be shiny. If you look at the Copperband Butterfly, it has a sharply defined, very bright, white-copper specular highlight. The Royal Gramma has a diffuse (soft), not quite as bright, reddish specular highlight. The Wimplefish has a diffuse, white specular which only really shows up on the black parts of its skin. More advanced specular lighting is sometimes needed. This is done in the form of a specular map, which explicitly tells the 3D engine how each texture is affected by ambient light, giving the 3D artist complete control. The realism of the Goldfish Aquarium has been lacking for me because the scales are not reflective. To my knowledge, the Goldfish Aquarium is not using any kind of specular lighting at all. Reichart assures me that adding full specular lighting to the Goldfish is a priority. To see what incredible effects can be done with bump maps and specular maps, look at the game "Halo" for XBox. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

11-16-2003, 10:23 PM	#8
James Principal Engineer as SDET Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Was in Auckland, New Zealand, Now in Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 1,406	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Turn on Specular Set the Specular color to white (yes, you could have any color speculars, even black) Set the specular strength (the amount of white mixed with the underlying color) to about 30% Set the specular power (the size of the point of light) to about 32 (the bigger the number, the smaller the point of light). Jim, does the specular strength here means the reflection coefficient and the specular power means the sharpness, in terms of OpenGL coding? (I don't use DirectX do I'm not sure).. specular lighting is actually a Phong Model of surface reflectance, intend for surface smoothing simulation, (unlike the Lambertian model which is purely equal diffuse lighting model)... Lighting is a big factor for realism but don't forgot the movement of the fish also aided a lot! The fish in AquaReal has mouth and gill moves, makes the fish more realistic and live like. The difference can be seen in MA, the lionfish is more realistic than other fish because it breaths!!! James C Chen Principal Engineer as SDET, Connected Services HTC Corporation 88 Section 3. Zhongxing Road Xindian District, New Taipei City 231, Taiwan www.htc.com

11-16-2003, 11:57 PM	#9
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	That's a very interesting topic and perfectly explained! Thank you all for bringing some light into this.

11-17-2003, 12:51 AM	#10
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	James - Yes to both your questions, though I simplified the explanation for clarity. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

11-17-2003, 06:04 AM	#11
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Thanks to Jim and Morgan for, as YT nicely puts it, - shining some light on this subject! I am assuming that the Specular slider in AquaReal (I have it set to 60%), is therefore determining the 'Specular strength' - yes? .... And although it improves the overall reality of ALL the fish (IMO), - it would be more correct to have fish such as the Blue Tang, with little or no specular applied! My liking for using a degree of Unsharp Mask in some situations, also seems to be partly explained here!

11-17-2003, 03:03 PM	#12
James Principal Engineer as SDET Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Was in Auckland, New Zealand, Now in Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 1,406	Originally posted by Jim Sachs James - Yes to both your questions, though I simplified the explanation for clarity. Thank you Jim ! Just wondering does the Direct X uses the same terminology like OpenGL? I'm really lokking forward that some day I'll learn programming in Direct X. Originally posted by cjmaddy Thanks to Jim and Morgan for, as YT nicely puts it, - shining some light on this subject! I am assuming that the Specular slider in AquaReal (I have it set to 60%), is therefore determining the 'Specular strength' - yes? .... And although it improves the overall reality of ALL the fish (IMO), - it would be more correct to have fish such as the Blue Tang, with little or no specular applied! My liking for using a degree of Unsharp Mask in some situations, also seems to be partly explained here! Cliff, I'm not so sure abou that.....because the specular reflection coefficient is usually different on difference material when luminate objects in 3D scene, I'll check that out with Senivy later. James C Chen Principal Engineer as SDET, Connected Services HTC Corporation 88 Section 3. Zhongxing Road Xindian District, New Taipei City 231, Taiwan www.htc.com

11-18-2003, 12:45 AM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	James - No, DirectX uses different terminolgy than OpenGL. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium