Bug: active program closes with MA2 - Page 3

FerdFerd · 02-23-2006, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Dale:

See also my other posts in this thread. I was experiencing the problem, too.

It appears that version 2.6 **MAY** have fixed the problem.

[snip]

This version does not fix this problem on my machine. A mouse move causes the top application to close spontaneously. If no application is active, it presents the XP shutdown screen.

loub516 · 02-23-2006, 10:38 AM

2.6 still does it on my machine.

Edgar · 02-23-2006, 10:45 AM

Post your system specs and if possible, PM me the dxdiag report.

I haven't seen this problem myself but if it is happening, I need to see if there are any similarities from the people who does see this problem.

I still think that this may be related to a video driver issue but I won't know for sure until I have more information.

FerdFerd · 02-24-2006, 07:35 AM

PM sent with the dxdiag report. My system is a Dell Dimension 4600 with 512MB RAM. The graphics adapter shows as Intel 82865G, which is whatever Dell used by default with this machine. OS is Windos XP Home Edition with all the updates to the present.

As one of my earlier posts in this thread said, Marine Aquarium worked fine until I had to reformat my hard drive and reinstall the OS from scratch. I did have to reinstall the video driver at that point, but I took it from the disk supplied with the computer, so I assume it is the same as the one that was installed when the computer shipped.

If I uncheck the box Exit on Mouse Move, I usually can exit the screen saver by pressing the Esc key without closing active applications.

feldon34 · 02-24-2006, 09:08 AM

I would try upgrading your graphics drivers:
Intel 82865G Graphics
Intel 865G Drivers

IF you have any problems with those drivers...

You might want to take a system snapshot so that if you have any problems, you can hit F8 at startup (before the Windows XP logo appears) and choose Last Known Good Configuration.

If you don't take a system snapshot, you may still be able to boot up into Safe Mode and roll back to the last version of that driver (assuming you have Windows XP set up like this -- it is by default).

Dale · 02-24-2006, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Edgar:

Post your system specs and if possible, PM me the dxdiag report.

I haven't seen this problem myself but if it is happening, I need to see if there are any similarities from the people who does see this problem.

I still think that this may be related to a video driver issue but I won't know for sure until I have more information.

DxDiag sent via PM (if I did it right). System is: (Home built)

Operating System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 2 (2600.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: INTEL_
System Model: D925CV2_
BIOS: BIOS Date: 06/16/05 18:51:37 Ver: 08.00.10
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.20GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 1022MB RAM

Display Devices
---------------
Card name: RADEON X300 Series
Manufacturer: ATI Technologies Inc.
Chip type: RADEON X300 SE (0x5B60)
DAC type: Internal DAC(400MHz)
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_5B60&SUBSYS_03021002&REV_00
Display Memory: 128.0 MB
Current Mode: 1024 x 768 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
Driver Name: ati2dvag.dll
Driver Version: 6.14.0010.6476 (English)
DDI Version: 9 (or higher)
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
Driver Date/Size: 8/25/2004 09:29:04, 209408 bytes
WHQL Logo'd: Yes

When last I looked (about 2 months ago), the BIOS and video device drivers were up to date.

Edgar · 02-25-2006, 02:26 AM

I received three dxdiag reports and compared them. I did not see anything in common.

I have multiple computers at home and I am not able to duplicate this bug.

FerdFerd said "Marine Aquarium worked fine until I had to reformat my hard drive and reinstall the OS from scratch."

I am trying to find what can cause them but right now, my suggestion is to do the following first.

EDIT: !!!! Warning !!!! Reinstalling video drivers can render your system inoperable. Make sure you know the risk before doing this.

Reinstall the video driver by uninstalling it completely and selecting the standard video driver first.
After rebooting with the standard video driver, install the correct video driver and hopefully that will fix the problem.
Sometimes, updating the video drivers does not completely remove the old driver because it is being used. The above method will make sure of it.

EDIT: !!!! Warning !!!! Reinstalling video drivers can render your system inoperable. Make sure you know the risk before doing this.

Note that the problem can also be cause by other programs installed in the computer.

It is difficult for me to find the cause without being able to duplicate the problem. We have other testers that test the screensaver on all kinds of systems to make sure it works correctly outside Prolific.

One more note, are you using Carousel ?
Can you try it with Carousel and see if it works better?

FerdFerd · 02-25-2006, 08:09 AM

OK, I uninstalled the Intel 82865G video driver, which was dated 2004. I then installed the version from the Intel web site referred to by feldon29 above. It's dated 2005, so it is more recent than the one Dell supplied.

Everything is behaving properly so far. I can exit the screen saver without having any active windows close. If that changes as I watch the behavior, I'll come back and repost, but so far so good.

Thanks for the suggestion! I still don't know why my system worked until I reinstalled the OS, unless the video driver supplied when I bought the computer was more recent than the one on the CD from which I restored the drivers. But there seems to be little use in obsessing about it, as long as the problem is gone.

Edgar · 02-25-2006, 09:03 AM

I am glad it worked for you.
I have feeling everyone else that has this bug is related to the video drivers.

Dale · 02-25-2006, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Edgar:

I am glad it worked for you.
I have feeling everyone else that has this bug is related to the video drivers.

I believe you should have the feeling that this bug may be related to video drivers *AND* Marine Aquarium.

In previous testing (with previous versions of MA), the problem did not occur with other screensavers. On at least one system that had problems, the problem existed with other screensavers -- until MA2 was uninstalled. Then the problem went away.

I don't want to minimize the value of your feeling, or your suggestions to fix the problem.

However, if other vendors (including Microsoft) have screensavers NEVER have the problem, and MA does have the problem (with some video cards and some drivers or whatever), then -- I would conclude that SereneScreen should fix the "problem". That's true even if the problem is actually a bug in video drivers that has to be "worked around" by SereneScreen.

Nor do I minimize the difficulty of fixing a problem that you can't (yet) duplicate.

However, without duplicating and fixing the problem, you're continually going to be saying "well, try this, and see if it fixes your problem", and chasing away a lot of customers (who will tell their friends).

Jim Sachs · 02-25-2006, 11:34 AM

Dale - you have a good point, and Prolific will continue to search for the answer. They are well aware of deficiencies in various video drivers, and all of their products already contain many work-arounds for these.

This would seem like an especially hard one to track down, though. I can't imagine how you would write code to even INTENTIONALLY do what seems to be happening here. When the program exits, it simply dies and returns control back to the operating system. It has no idea what other programs are running or any way of sending them a CLOSE message.

Edgar · 02-25-2006, 01:18 PM

Dale, does it close other programs all the time you ran the screensaver?

loub516 · 02-25-2006, 01:29 PM

I don't think is strictly related to Ma.This also happens to me when I run Dream Aquarium. I just uncheck exit on mouse move and no more problem. That gets around it a lot easier than messing around with video drivers.

Edgar · 02-25-2006, 01:32 PM

Note that my instructions did not say change the video drivers. I said reinstall the current video drivers. A bad installation may create this problem.

FerdFerd · 02-25-2006, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Edgar:

Note that my instructions did not say change the video drivers. I said reinstall the current video drivers. A bad installation may create this problem.

I think what I did was change the video drivers, though. Isn't that what feldon29 suggested I do? Download updated video drivers from Intel and install them?

(The updated driver didn't work until I uninstalled the old driver, restarted in VGA mode, and then installed the updated driver, more like you said. Maybe a reinstallation of the same driver would have worked, although I have a vague recollection that I did that quite awhile ago.)

Edgar · 02-25-2006, 04:21 PM

FerdFerd,
It works for you now so I suggest to keep your setup as is. I am hoping the other two who has the same problem that sent me their dxdiag report to just reinstall. They already have the newest driver installed so an update will not be an option.

Dale · 02-25-2006, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Dale - you have a good point, and Prolific will continue to search for the answer. They are well aware of deficiencies in various video drivers, and all of their products already contain many work-arounds for these.

This would seem like an especially hard one to track down, though. I can't imagine how you would write code to even INTENTIONALLY do what seems to be happening here. When the program exits, it simply dies and returns control back to the operating system. It has no idea what other programs are running or any way of sending them a CLOSE message.

Interesting. I have no knowledge of the internals, but would have thought that the program would try to do some cleanup before it "simply dies". For instance, maybe change the resolution and 16/32 bit setting back to what it was before the program ran.

Now, for example, if the program issues asynchronous commands to the system/drivers, and then "simply dies", it would be up to some other program to try to "handle" something unexpected, like a changing resolution.

[By the way, I mention the above example because these particular products are unusual in the screensaver space - they provide options for changing resolution and 16/32 bit setting, for instance, that are not common in other screensavers. And the "feeling" is that this problem is related to video, rather than some other aspect like "power settings"]

That's all just speculation on my part, of course - I have no idea what the program does when I move my mouse. Nor how that differs from what the program does when I press Escape. But the latter action is reported to never cause the problem. And obviously, different device interrupts are involved.

Dale · 02-25-2006, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Edgar:

Dale, does it close other programs all the time you ran the screensaver?

Nope. And 2.6 seems to be better than 2.0. And *PERHAPS* 2.6 is only doing it (sometimes?) when the screensaver is actually displaying something - but does not do it after the monitor is turned off (power setting).

Maybe.

However, for example, I was just writing the long reply to Jim above. I was about 2/3 through writing it, when my wife came in with a question. I turned away to help her. When I turned back around, the fish were swimming around the screen. I moved the mouse. Netscape was gone (and with it, the text that I had been writing).

Edgar · 02-25-2006, 11:10 PM

Dale,
Have you tried my suggestions of either using Carousel or reinstalling the video drivers?

Also, do you start the screensaver by running it through the icon and if you do, does it also close other programs when you stop it?

Since I don't have access to this problem, to fix this, I will need help from people that has the problem. I will keep trying as long as I have help, otherwise I will only be wasting time.

Dale · 02-25-2006, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Edgar:

Dale,
Have you tried my suggestions of either using Carousel or reinstalling the video drivers?

Also, do you start the screensaver by running it through the icon and if you do, does it also close other programs when you stop it?

Since I don't have access to this problem, to fix this, I will need help from people that has the problem. I will keep trying as long as I have help, otherwise I will only be wasting time.

I haven't tried using Carousel. I didn't want to complicate the situation. However, I'm willing to try running Carousel, if you can explain why?

A. If Carousel makes the problem go away, would you know what to fix in MA?

B. If Carousel does not make the problem go away, would knowing that help to fix MA?

And I have just (10 minutes ago) installed a new version of the ATI software (which would include whatever the latest drivers are). I would prefer to watch this change for a while, rather than introducing two changes at the same time.

Oh, and I almost never start MA by using the icon. After all - it's supposed to be an automatic screensaver.

02-23-2006, 10:38 AM	#42
loub516 Registered Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Savannah, Ga. Posts: 421	2.6 still does it on my machine. LB

02-23-2006, 10:45 AM	#43
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	Post your system specs and if possible, PM me the dxdiag report. I haven't seen this problem myself but if it is happening, I need to see if there are any similarities from the people who does see this problem. I still think that this may be related to a video driver issue but I won't know for sure until I have more information. *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-24-2006, 09:08 AM	#45
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	I would try upgrading your graphics drivers: Intel 82865G Graphics Intel 865G Drivers IF you have any problems with those drivers... You might want to take a system snapshot so that if you have any problems, you can hit F8 at startup (before the Windows XP logo appears) and choose Last Known Good Configuration. If you don't take a system snapshot, you may still be able to boot up into Safe Mode and roll back to the last version of that driver (assuming you have Windows XP set up like this -- it is by default). "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-25-2006, 02:26 AM	#47
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	I received three dxdiag reports and compared them. I did not see anything in common. I have multiple computers at home and I am not able to duplicate this bug. FerdFerd said "Marine Aquarium worked fine until I had to reformat my hard drive and reinstall the OS from scratch." I am trying to find what can cause them but right now, my suggestion is to do the following first. EDIT: !!!! Warning !!!! Reinstalling video drivers can render your system inoperable. Make sure you know the risk before doing this. Reinstall the video driver by uninstalling it completely and selecting the standard video driver first. After rebooting with the standard video driver, install the correct video driver and hopefully that will fix the problem. Sometimes, updating the video drivers does not completely remove the old driver because it is being used. The above method will make sure of it. EDIT: !!!! Warning !!!! Reinstalling video drivers can render your system inoperable. Make sure you know the risk before doing this. Note that the problem can also be cause by other programs installed in the computer. It is difficult for me to find the cause without being able to duplicate the problem. We have other testers that test the screensaver on all kinds of systems to make sure it works correctly outside Prolific. One more note, are you using Carousel ? Can you try it with Carousel and see if it works better? *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-25-2006, 09:03 AM	#49
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	I am glad it worked for you. I have feeling everyone else that has this bug is related to the video drivers. *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-23-2006, 08:28 AM	#41
FerdFerd Registered Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	Originally posted by Dale: See also my other posts in this thread. I was experiencing the problem, too. It appears that version 2.6 MAY have fixed the problem. [snip] This version does not fix this problem on my machine. A mouse move causes the top application to close spontaneously. If no application is active, it presents the XP shutdown screen.

02-24-2006, 07:35 AM	#44
FerdFerd Registered Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	PM sent with the dxdiag report. My system is a Dell Dimension 4600 with 512MB RAM. The graphics adapter shows as Intel 82865G, which is whatever Dell used by default with this machine. OS is Windos XP Home Edition with all the updates to the present. As one of my earlier posts in this thread said, Marine Aquarium worked fine until I had to reformat my hard drive and reinstall the OS from scratch. I did have to reinstall the video driver at that point, but I took it from the disk supplied with the computer, so I assume it is the same as the one that was installed when the computer shipped. If I uncheck the box Exit on Mouse Move, I usually can exit the screen saver by pressing the Esc key without closing active applications.

02-24-2006, 11:30 PM	#46
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Edgar: Post your system specs and if possible, PM me the dxdiag report. I haven't seen this problem myself but if it is happening, I need to see if there are any similarities from the people who does see this problem. I still think that this may be related to a video driver issue but I won't know for sure until I have more information. DxDiag sent via PM (if I did it right). System is: (Home built) Operating System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 2 (2600.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519) Language: English (Regional Setting: English) System Manufacturer: INTEL_ System Model: D925CV2_ BIOS: BIOS Date: 06/16/05 18:51:37 Ver: 08.00.10 Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.20GHz (2 CPUs) Memory: 1022MB RAM Display Devices --------------- Card name: RADEON X300 Series Manufacturer: ATI Technologies Inc. Chip type: RADEON X300 SE (0x5B60) DAC type: Internal DAC(400MHz) Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_5B60&SUBSYS_03021002&REV_00 Display Memory: 128.0 MB Current Mode: 1024 x 768 (32 bit) (60Hz) Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200 Driver Name: ati2dvag.dll Driver Version: 6.14.0010.6476 (English) DDI Version: 9 (or higher) Driver Attributes: Final Retail Driver Date/Size: 8/25/2004 09:29:04, 209408 bytes WHQL Logo'd: Yes When last I looked (about 2 months ago), the BIOS and video device drivers were up to date.

02-25-2006, 08:09 AM	#48
FerdFerd Registered Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	OK, I uninstalled the Intel 82865G video driver, which was dated 2004. I then installed the version from the Intel web site referred to by feldon29 above. It's dated 2005, so it is more recent than the one Dell supplied. Everything is behaving properly so far. I can exit the screen saver without having any active windows close. If that changes as I watch the behavior, I'll come back and repost, but so far so good. Thanks for the suggestion! I still don't know why my system worked until I reinstalled the OS, unless the video driver supplied when I bought the computer was more recent than the one on the CD from which I restored the drivers. But there seems to be little use in obsessing about it, as long as the problem is gone.

02-25-2006, 11:26 AM	#50
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Edgar: I am glad it worked for you. I have feeling everyone else that has this bug is related to the video drivers. I believe you should have the feeling that this bug may be related to video drivers AND Marine Aquarium. In previous testing (with previous versions of MA), the problem did not occur with other screensavers. On at least one system that had problems, the problem existed with other screensavers -- until MA2 was uninstalled. Then the problem went away. I don't want to minimize the value of your feeling, or your suggestions to fix the problem. However, if other vendors (including Microsoft) have screensavers NEVER have the problem, and MA does have the problem (with some video cards and some drivers or whatever), then -- I would conclude that SereneScreen should fix the "problem". That's true even if the problem is actually a bug in video drivers that has to be "worked around" by SereneScreen. Nor do I minimize the difficulty of fixing a problem that you can't (yet) duplicate. However, without duplicating and fixing the problem, you're continually going to be saying "well, try this, and see if it fixes your problem", and chasing away a lot of customers (who will tell their friends).

02-25-2006, 11:34 AM	#51
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	Dale - you have a good point, and Prolific will continue to search for the answer. They are well aware of deficiencies in various video drivers, and all of their products already contain many work-arounds for these. This would seem like an especially hard one to track down, though. I can't imagine how you would write code to even INTENTIONALLY do what seems to be happening here. When the program exits, it simply dies and returns control back to the operating system. It has no idea what other programs are running or any way of sending them a CLOSE message. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-25-2006, 01:18 PM	#52
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	Dale, does it close other programs all the time you ran the screensaver? *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-25-2006, 01:29 PM	#53
loub516 Registered Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Savannah, Ga. Posts: 421	I don't think is strictly related to Ma.This also happens to me when I run Dream Aquarium. I just uncheck exit on mouse move and no more problem. That gets around it a lot easier than messing around with video drivers. LB

02-25-2006, 01:32 PM	#54
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	Note that my instructions did not say change the video drivers. I said reinstall the current video drivers. A bad installation may create this problem. *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-25-2006, 03:51 PM	#55
FerdFerd Registered Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 22	Originally posted by Edgar: Note that my instructions did not say change the video drivers. I said reinstall the current video drivers. A bad installation may create this problem. I think what I did *was* change the video drivers, though. Isn't that what feldon29 suggested I do? Download updated video drivers from Intel and install them? (The updated driver didn't work until I uninstalled the old driver, restarted in VGA mode, and then installed the updated driver, more like you said. Maybe a reinstallation of the same driver would have worked, although I have a vague recollection that I did that quite awhile ago.)

02-25-2006, 04:21 PM	#56
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	FerdFerd, It works for you now so I suggest to keep your setup as is. I am hoping the other two who has the same problem that sent me their dxdiag report to just reinstall. They already have the newest driver installed so an update will not be an option. *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-25-2006, 10:34 PM	#57
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Dale - you have a good point, and Prolific will continue to search for the answer. They are well aware of deficiencies in various video drivers, and all of their products already contain many work-arounds for these. This would seem like an especially hard one to track down, though. I can't imagine how you would write code to even INTENTIONALLY do what seems to be happening here. When the program exits, it simply dies and returns control back to the operating system. It has no idea what other programs are running or any way of sending them a CLOSE message. Interesting. I have no knowledge of the internals, but would have thought that the program would try to do some cleanup before it "simply dies". For instance, maybe change the resolution and 16/32 bit setting back to what it was before the program ran. Now, for example, if the program issues asynchronous commands to the system/drivers, and then "simply dies", it would be up to some other program to try to "handle" something unexpected, like a changing resolution. [By the way, I mention the above example because these particular products are unusual in the screensaver space - they provide options for changing resolution and 16/32 bit setting, for instance, that are not common in other screensavers. And the "feeling" is that this problem is related to video, rather than some other aspect like "power settings"] That's all just speculation on my part, of course - I have no idea what the program does when I move my mouse. Nor how that differs from what the program does when I press Escape. But the latter action is reported to never cause the problem. And obviously, different device interrupts are involved.

02-25-2006, 10:42 PM	#58
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Edgar: Dale, does it close other programs all the time you ran the screensaver? Nope. And 2.6 seems to be better than 2.0. And PERHAPS 2.6 is only doing it (sometimes?) when the screensaver is actually displaying something - but does not do it after the monitor is turned off (power setting). Maybe. However, for example, I was just writing the long reply to Jim above. I was about 2/3 through writing it, when my wife came in with a question. I turned away to help her. When I turned back around, the fish were swimming around the screen. I moved the mouse. Netscape was gone (and with it, the text that I had been writing).

02-25-2006, 11:10 PM	#59
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	Dale, Have you tried my suggestions of either using Carousel or reinstalling the video drivers? Also, do you start the screensaver by running it through the icon and if you do, does it also close other programs when you stop it? Since I don't have access to this problem, to fix this, I will need help from people that has the problem. I will keep trying as long as I have help, otherwise I will only be wasting time. *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-25-2006, 11:55 PM	#60
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Edgar: Dale, Have you tried my suggestions of either using Carousel or reinstalling the video drivers? Also, do you start the screensaver by running it through the icon and if you do, does it also close other programs when you stop it? Since I don't have access to this problem, to fix this, I will need help from people that has the problem. I will keep trying as long as I have help, otherwise I will only be wasting time. I haven't tried using Carousel. I didn't want to complicate the situation. However, I'm willing to try running Carousel, if you can explain why? A. If Carousel makes the problem go away, would you know what to fix in MA? B. If Carousel does not make the problem go away, would knowing that help to fix MA? And I have just (10 minutes ago) installed a new version of the ATI software (which would include whatever the latest drivers are). I would prefer to watch this change for a while, rather than introducing two changes at the same time. Oh, and I almost never start MA by using the icon. After all - it's supposed to be an automatic screensaver.