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Old 08-12-2002, 08:11 AM   #1
CIRCUIT JUDGE
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WHEN ?

Is there any forseeable date for us getting the freshwater version
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Old 08-12-2002, 08:41 AM   #2
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I heared fall '02
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Old 08-13-2002, 12:33 PM   #3
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Maybe we get it as x-mas present - like the Lionfish last year.... so it would be Feb. 2003 :-)
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Old 08-14-2002, 04:22 AM   #4
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ahhh, if I don't get the freshwatertank in fall, I'll die
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Old 08-14-2002, 05:47 AM   #5
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It would be so nice to see some screenshots...
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Old 08-16-2002, 05:35 AM   #6
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Yeah, shots of the real freshwatertank jim set up would be nice too just something to look at
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Old 08-16-2002, 10:20 AM   #7
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Standard response

When? ....when it's done.
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Old 08-17-2002, 02:02 AM   #8
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It would be so nice to see some screenshots...
In the past Jim has made it clear that he doesn't want to post any images of the aquarium which have to do with unfinished work (e.g. 3D background, new fish, etc.). So it's likely this will also hold true for the freshwater version (unfortunately). Oh how I wish Jim would prove me wrong on this one and finally post some images, but I doubt it's ever going to change.
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Old 08-17-2002, 03:50 AM   #9
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It seems to be an integrity thing for Jim. Presenting his work and then hear critics at an early stage might make him loose interest. - Why continue to work on something people don't like, and such. I don't know how open he is about input on the actual design of the aquarium either. With an artists approach to something (as I believe is how Jim works with these aquariums) I think it's almost "forbidden" to change your work to please others. (Not meaning fixing bugs, though.) This is just my 2 cents...
(Sorry Jim for putting words in your mouth. I hope I'm not out into deep waters here.)
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Old 08-17-2002, 10:40 AM   #10
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When I used to restore cars for a living, I'd spend about six months hammering and filling the body until it was perfectly smooth. But everyone I proudly showed it to thought it was hideous until it was painted (a very minor final step). I learned my lesson.
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Old 08-17-2002, 01:10 PM   #11
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Presenting his work and then hear critics at an early stage might make him loose interest.
Well, some people can handle criticism, and some cannot. Either way, Jim has his reasons and we've grown to accept them because the fruits of his labor more than make it worth the wait.

Still, a LOT of software developers show screenshots of their work prior to the software going gold and even prior to beta versions, so it's not like it's taboo or something. The difference here is that Jim is in fact an artist and as such probably views things a bit differently than your average programmer.
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Old 08-18-2002, 07:22 AM   #12
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DL, could you define artist for me? To the best of my knowledge, one can be an artist in many different ways. Around here several people (not Jim himself TTBOMK) wields that "Artist" expression around as an explanation to a lot of things. What does it take to call oneself an artist – some sort of exam?

A lot of this sounds like the newspapers shouting out that "Scientists" have discovered that this-and-that is dangerous (or isn't) and instantly people believes it because "scientists" know everything.

Sorry if this comes out a bit harsh, but as long as Jim comes up with good explanations himself (like in this thread for instance) there's IMO no need to follow it up with that "he's an artist – not an programmer" expression.

/Tiny Ranting

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Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think.

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I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.'
I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.
" /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.
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Old 08-18-2002, 11:47 PM   #13
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DL, could you define artist for me? To the best of my knowledge, one can be an artist in many different ways.
Well, I suppose I consider Jim an artist based on his original digital art which he was so well known for back in the Amiga days. I understand that some people (programmers for example) might like to consider themselves digital artists just because they know how to weild code around, but to me an artist (digital or real for that matter) is someone that visualizes the images they want to create and then paints them onto a real or digital canvas. Sure, there are other types of artists out there in the real and digital worlds (sculptors for example), but in so far as the digital world goes, to me Jim is an artist.
Sorry if this comes out a bit harsh, but as long as Jim comes up with good explanations himself (like in this thread for instance) there's IMO no need to follow it up with that "he's an artist – not an programmer" expression.
Yes it did come out a bit harsh Tiny, but no big deal. The fact is I posted my response before I saw Jim's, a common occurance around here and on other forums. So please understand that I wasn't trying to be annoying on purpose, it just happened. Sorry if I rubbed you or anyone else the wrong way with this unintended "mistake".
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Old 08-19-2002, 09:42 AM   #14
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I am always awed when I look at all of the artwork Jim did in Amiga and Commodore days. Also all of the work he did on CompuTrainer. It is truly art and should be in a museum somewhere (for now we'll have to settle for a website).

I really do not forsee people helping Jim with the shrimp, octopus, jellyfish, etc. especially the animation of them. Unless these are people with a film or special effects background I don't trust em to get it anywhere near right.

Which brings us back to the fish. What strikes me about the Aquarium is the motion of the fish, the realism of the water's surface light and shadows on the coral, the lighting off of some of the fish (Royal Gramma, Copperband, Wimplefish).

I've stated several times (much to Jim's chagrin), that I think there are other people who could assist with making just fish. The structure is already there to have crisp, detailed fish with properly shaped bodies.

I look at Jim's art over the years and don't know what to say. The amount of detail is mind-boggling. I could never even think of doing anything like that. Then I look at the Aquarium and the fish and think, you know, I could probably make some fish myself that would blend in.

I wonder if Jim is doing multiple layers of transparency for the freshwater fish. That would be nightmarish to have to model, texture, and create an alpha channel for 2 objects per fish instead of 1.
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Old 08-19-2002, 10:56 AM   #15
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Originally posted by Tiny Turtle
DL, could you define artist for me? To the best of my knowledge, one can be an artist in many different ways. Around here several people (not Jim himself TTBOMK) wields that "Artist" expression around as an explanation to a lot of things. What does it take to call oneself an artist – some sort of exam?

Artist: One who creates a product to make a profit (i.e. to "raise funds for a future movie") yet makes the product as HE wants it as opposed to what the consumer wants.

I have felt for some time that both Jim and others use the "Artist" label to gloss over Jim's somewhat contradictory attitudes toward the Aquarium. Namely, that he has stressed a number of times that the purpose of the program is to make money, yet even when MANY of his customers express intrest in certain features, he avoids them as not corresponding with his vision of what the Aquarium should be.

It seems that if the main goal is profit, you should make what the largest possible number of people will be most happy with, and then they buy it. Jim seems to consider it very much "his" Aquarium, which is fine. But if he's making it to satisfy something artistic in himself, at the expense of customers' desires, he cannot say that the purpose of the product is to make money.

I think this artistic possessive attitude especially hurts when Jim keeps anyone else from the design of the program. Insisting on doing all coding himself slows down the process greatly, again hindering profits.

And more disturbing to me is the effort he has made to keep anyone from adding to what he has done, like SS fans making their own fish. For one thing, no program is so perfect that it can't be improved on, and to think that only Jim has the talent to do the Aquarium justice is unrealistic. Second, I don't see that Jim even has the right to keep people from altering their programs. People have referred to this as "keeping others away from his canvas" and "protecting the Mona Lisa from the spraypaint." Thing is, it stopped being HIS canvas as soon as he accepted my $19.99 for it. If I bought the Mona Lisa, or a copy of it, I could draw a mustache on it if that's what I wanted to do. It's mine; Da Vinci has nothing to say about it. Which is why I think we will see non-Jim-approved fish and features being circulated underground regardless. If the people want it badly enough, and Jim doesn't give it to them, someone else will. Happens to video games all the time.

*DISCLAIMER*
All that being said, I mean no offence to anyone and am grateful to Jim for giving us the best screensaver I've ever seen. These are just feelings I've kept to myself for a long time and I'm freedom-of-speeching them now. They certainly won't stop me from getting the Aquarium plug-ins and possibly later screensavers as I support Jim's work.

So he cried as the good townsfolk, torches and pitchforks in hand, closed around him in an angry mob to exterminate the monster in their midst.
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Old 08-19-2002, 11:46 AM   #16
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Easy there, Tonto. – You (and possibly me) are in for some flak...

/Tiny Bombshelter
Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think.

"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.'
I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.
" /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.
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Old 08-19-2002, 12:44 PM   #17
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I have felt for some time that both Jim and others use the "Artist" label to gloss over Jim's somewhat contradictory attitudes toward the Aquarium. Namely, that he has stressed a number of times that the purpose of the program is to make money, yet even when MANY of his customers express intrest in certain features, he avoids them as not corresponding with his vision of what the Aquarium should be.
I'm glad you are not involved in the decision-making process for the Lord of the Rings films. Otherwise they would have erased all the orcs from the story and put in the latest boy band song and a love story and turned Gollum into Frodo's pet.

Second, I don't see that Jim even has the right to keep people from altering their programs. People have referred to this as "keeping others away from his canvas" and "protecting the Mona Lisa from the spraypaint." Thing is, it stopped being HIS canvas as soon as he accepted my $19.99 for it. If I bought the Mona Lisa, or a copy of it, I could draw a mustache on it if that's what I wanted to do.
Legally, you are licensing the Aquarium from Jim. You do not own it. But, under fair use laws you could modify it for yourself. There are a lot of laws here, too much to explain in a single paragraph.

Morally, you're on your own.

Which is why I think we will see non-Jim-approved fish and features being circulated underground regardless. If the people want it badly enough, and Jim doesn't give it to them, someone else will. Happens to video games all the time.
So far, the only modifications to the Aquarium I have seen in public have been the Russian jacked versions which have translated dialog boxes and hideous fish, many of which are native Russian freshwater fish or monstrosities in the mind of the hacker. Who knows how much non-public underground stuff is going around.

More and more games are providing an opening where people can create their own characters, worlds, etc. Jim's reason for not opening up the Aquarium has been the integrity of the artwork, namely that in any open-ended situation, there is always 80-90% noise and 10% signal.

For every 1 character or world that is interesting and attractive, there are 10 created by someone who is just goofing around. And of those 10%, only 1-2% are in the same class as those created by the original developer. id Software is proof of that. They have been so impressed with some of the third-party worlds and characters that they have licensed them from fans and sold them in retail packages. The question is, is it worth opening the door for that 2%? I think so.

Also, there are websites that weed through the countless modifications and single out the best. I know if there WERE "legal" modifications, I would only list the very best of them (in my opinion) on my website.

As much as I talk about hoping the Aquarium will open up to outside development, I am not against the idea of only certain people having access to these tools. I don't think I say that out of selfishness. I think I say it because I fear what some people would add.
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell
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Old 08-19-2002, 03:40 PM   #18
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Originally posted by feldon23


I'm glad you are not involved in the decision-making process for the Lord of the Rings films. Otherwise they would have erased all the orcs from the story and put in the latest boy band song and a love story and turned Gollum into Frodo's pet.
Huh??

You've radically underestimated my appreciation for orcs, and overestimated my appreciation of boy bands. There is a love story: Arwen & Aragorn.

I wasn't suggesting that I personally be in close consultation in the development of the Aquarium. Only that some of the more widely desired features be made optional, rather than completely refused.

Also note that the Lord of the Rings films is under an obligation to its fans to stay true to Tolkien's books, and Jim, creating an original work, is not limited by continuing the work of a previous artist.

I agree with the majority of your post (the sensible parts). But as far as fearing what others would add, no one's going to force anyone to use their modifications. It'd be up to whether to download or not.
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Old 08-19-2002, 05:05 PM   #19
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Easy there, Tonto. – You (and possibly me) are in for some flak...
FLAK FLAK FLAK FLAK!!!!!!!!! Had enough?
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Old 08-20-2002, 01:32 AM   #20
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