Surely not?!? - Page 2

Seafoam · 09-16-2003, 02:13 PM

Yeah, the link between Moorish Idols and Islam is no big deal. You could certainly put one in the screensaver with no trouble. And Gill from "Finding Nemo" had scars, but he wasn't nasty. He actually SEEMED like a "bad guy" at first, but he really is a very good character.

Jim Sachs · 09-16-2003, 02:48 PM

If there are any (moderate) Muslims out there, please speak up on this issue. I get the feeling that most of the people here don't quite understand the problem. It might be seen as a sign of disrespect, like some non-Christian group making a Jesus brand of breakfast cereal.

As for Disney's Gill -- How could they hate multibillion-dollar conglomerate headed by a Jewish man and bent on world domination?

feldon34 · 09-16-2003, 03:52 PM

Google searches simply do not back up the idea that Moorish Idols are significantly sacred that their inclusion in the Aquarium would cause a problem.

Jim Sachs · 09-16-2003, 09:58 PM

I wouldn't really expect it to, since the Internet heavily favors groups which are technologically advanced enough to have computers. Islam considers this modernism to be evil.

feldon34 · 09-16-2003, 10:07 PM

I checked LudditeWorld.com too.

No animosity towards the idea of a Moorish Idol in the Aquarium there either.

Panthera · 09-16-2003, 10:24 PM

Well, regardless, I'd still like to see in the aquarium.

(just my 2 little pennies)

Jim Sachs · 09-16-2003, 11:55 PM

Very funny, Morgan

99% sure it will be going in, Panthera.

Panthera · 09-17-2003, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
99% sure it will be going in, Panthera.

Wonderful!

Jav400 · 09-17-2003, 04:35 AM

Yep, sounds good to me.

kona001 · 09-17-2003, 07:18 AM

Jim,

If most extreme Muslim's who would consider having a computer as being against their God, then they would be going against their religion if they had a computer. They wouldn't get their 21 virgins if they downloaded the screensaver at all. If they did happen to see the Moorish Idol on their screen, they would think it were real. After some unsuccessful attempts trying to remove the sacred fish from the monitor casing, they would have a ceremony and release the computer with the screensaver running, back into the sea. LoL

Tiny Turtle · 09-17-2003, 08:41 AM

Hm, think of it this way:
You're the owner of a asian website dedicated to cooking and earn your revenue by selling recipes. As you are hellbent on not offending anyone (although most of your recipes are sold in Asia) you decide to not include recipes of how to cook dogs even-though it would be ok to most of your customer-base. Fair?

Imagine the Asian customer Ko-Nah Wan saying "If most extreme westerners who would consider eating anything at all against their God", then they would be going against their religion if they had a kitchen..." just because to him it was natural to eat dogs.

I have no problem with the inclusion of a Moorish Idol, nor do I believe any Muslims would, – especially as I belive Jim will do this animal full justice. Coarse jokes however – especially based on incorrect statements – on behalf of religious groups is not something that amuses me.

/Tiny Attempt At Allegory (And Also Alliteration Apparently

)

cjmaddy · 09-17-2003, 10:35 AM

Do you not think we may be overstepping the line on this one! - Perhaps it would be prudent to remove your post Kona.

I'm with Tiny, .................. to each his own!

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, but I do think we should respect others, - even if at times, (some may think), that they may appear not to respect us.

I'm sure we can have the Moorish Idol, without offending others!

handimannbob · 09-17-2003, 09:30 PM

i guess one could ask a local religious leader of islam

Spliff · 09-17-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Islam considers this modernism to be evil.

Jim - I think that is quite offensive. I understand you don't know much about Islam but the little you know is obviously wrong. Please consider informing yourself before making such statements: it might be seen as a sign of disrespect.

About the fish: it's a fish - there is no sacred fish in Islam and it wouldn't offend any muslim.

Hope this helps,

Louis · 09-18-2003, 12:03 AM

Jim is an ARTIST and ART is unlimited.

Jim Sachs · 09-18-2003, 01:19 AM

Spliff - Are you a moderate Muslim? If so, I welcome your comments.

I have actually done quite a bit of reading on the subject, mostly such as this article from the New York Post: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...nists/4879.htm

My hope is that this is an extremist view and not representative of the majority of Muslims.

As for disrespect, it should be obvious that I am going to great lengths not to.

Tiny Turtle · 09-18-2003, 01:53 AM

From Jim's link
Al-Ayyeri's analysis may sound naive; he also gets most of his facts wrong.

Um, this guy speaks of "democracy's seductive capabilities" and stuff like that. Evidently he's way off into his own little world somewhere and labeling him "Muslim" would be like speaking about the KKK and just call them Christians. Technically true – but pretty insulting to the rest of that group.

Louis,
I'm not saying Jim is insulting anyone, but labeling something "art" does not automatically make it untouchable.

/Tiny Pietism

Jim Sachs · 09-18-2003, 08:49 AM

TT - As I said, it is my fervent hope that this fellow doesn't speak for the majority. However, in the U.S. media we get very little evidence to the contrary.

Spliff - When doing the original research for the Aquarium, the first book I got was The Tetra Encyclopedia of The Marine Aquarium by Dick Mills. When flipping through it for the first time, I saw a picture of a Moorish Idol with this caption:

"The common name of the Moorish Idol is derived from the high esteem in which the fish is held by some Moslem populations. When caught by them it is returned to the water with some ceremony."

Are you saying that this statement has no basis in fact? (Like Tiny, I'm not using any sarcasm here -- I really want to know.)

Louis · 09-18-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle
I'm not saying Jim is insulting anyone, but labeling something "art" does not automatically make it untouchable.

/Tiny Pietism

If ART is limited then it will call commercial ART.

Besides, it's just a screensaver running in computers.

The fishes didn't change their nature. (No genetic modifications)
ie. We couldn't see a human head putting on a fish's body of SA.

The goal of SA simulates an aquarium as real as it could, and
Jim has done it well.

The first time when I saw SA running in a computer, I've got a
feeling of ART but you may call it electronic ART.
(remarks: it's not the name of a company)

Spliff · 09-18-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
TT - As I said, it is my fervent hope that this fellow doesn't speak for the majority. However, in the U.S. media we get very little evidence to the contrary.

He doesn't. By rejecting science and technological progress he goes against the teachings of the Qur'an. It's quite sad to see such distorted views so widely publicised. Please read this article:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/high...786006,00.html

"The common name of the Moorish Idol is derived from the high esteem in which the fish is held by some Moslem populations. When caught by them it is returned to the water with some ceremony."

Are you saying that this statement has no basis in fact?

Jim - I'm sure that statement has some factual basis. It probably refers to some pre-islamic tradition somewhere. It has nothing to do with religion - I dare to say that those same populations holding the Moorish Idol in such a high esteem would find it quite charming on their computer screen.

09-16-2003, 02:48 PM	#22
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	If there are any (moderate) Muslims out there, please speak up on this issue. I get the feeling that most of the people here don't quite understand the problem. It might be seen as a sign of disrespect, like some non-Christian group making a Jesus brand of breakfast cereal. As for Disney's Gill -- How could they hate multibillion-dollar conglomerate headed by a Jewish man and bent on world domination? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

09-16-2003, 03:52 PM	#23
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Google searches simply do not back up the idea that Moorish Idols are significantly sacred that their inclusion in the Aquarium would cause a problem. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

09-16-2003, 09:58 PM	#24
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	I wouldn't really expect it to, since the Internet heavily favors groups which are technologically advanced enough to have computers. Islam considers this modernism to be evil. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

09-16-2003, 10:07 PM	#25
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	I checked LudditeWorld.com too. No animosity towards the idea of a Moorish Idol in the Aquarium there either. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

09-16-2003, 11:55 PM	#27
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	Very funny, Morgan 99% sure it will be going in, Panthera. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

09-17-2003, 04:35 AM	#29
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Yep, sounds good to me. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

09-17-2003, 07:18 AM	#30
kona001 New Husband and new Aquarium Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 318	Jim, If most extreme Muslim's who would consider having a computer as being against their God, then they would be going against their religion if they had a computer. They wouldn't get their 21 virgins if they downloaded the screensaver at all. If they did happen to see the Moorish Idol on their screen, they would think it were real. After some unsuccessful attempts trying to remove the sacred fish from the monitor casing, they would have a ceremony and release the computer with the screensaver running, back into the sea. LoL "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail"-W2

09-17-2003, 08:41 AM	#31
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Hm, think of it this way: You're the owner of a asian website dedicated to cooking and earn your revenue by selling recipes. As you are hellbent on not offending anyone (although most of your recipes are sold in Asia) you decide to not include recipes of how to cook dogs even-though it would be ok to most of your customer-base. Fair? Imagine the Asian customer Ko-Nah Wan saying "If most extreme westerners who would consider eating anything at all against their God", then they would be going against their religion if they had a kitchen..." just because to him it was natural to eat dogs. I have no problem with the inclusion of a Moorish Idol, nor do I believe any Muslims would, – especially as I belive Jim will do this animal full justice. Coarse jokes however – especially based on incorrect statements – on behalf of religious groups is not something that amuses me. /Tiny Attempt At Allegory (And Also Alliteration Apparently ) Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

09-17-2003, 10:35 AM	#32
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Do you not think we may be overstepping the line on this one! - Perhaps it would be prudent to remove your post Kona. I'm with Tiny, .................. to each his own! I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, but I do think we should respect others, - even if at times, (some may think), that they may appear not to respect us. I'm sure we can have the Moorish Idol, without offending others!

09-17-2003, 09:30 PM	#33
handimannbob what's up doc ? Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: millbrae,ca Posts: 410	i guess one could ask a local religious leader of islam bob

09-17-2003, 10:30 PM	#34
Spliff Registered Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Islam considers this modernism to be evil. Jim - I think that is quite offensive. I understand you don't know much about Islam but the little you know is obviously wrong. Please consider informing yourself before making such statements: it might be seen as a sign of disrespect. About the fish: it's a fish - there is no sacred fish in Islam and it wouldn't offend any muslim. Hope this helps,

09-18-2003, 12:03 AM	#35
Louis Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 35	Jim is an ARTIST and ART is unlimited.

09-18-2003, 01:19 AM	#36
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	Spliff - Are you a moderate Muslim? If so, I welcome your comments. I have actually done quite a bit of reading on the subject, mostly such as this article from the New York Post: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...nists/4879.htm My hope is that this is an extremist view and not representative of the majority of Muslims. As for disrespect, it should be obvious that I am going to great lengths not to. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

09-18-2003, 01:53 AM	#37
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	From Jim's link Al-Ayyeri's analysis may sound naive; he also gets most of his facts wrong. Um, this guy speaks of "democracy's seductive capabilities" and stuff like that. Evidently he's way off into his own little world somewhere and labeling him "Muslim" would be like speaking about the KKK and just call them Christians. Technically true – but pretty insulting to the rest of that group. Louis, I'm not saying Jim is insulting anyone, but labeling something "art" does not automatically make it untouchable. /Tiny Pietism

09-18-2003, 08:49 AM	#38
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	TT - As I said, it is my fervent hope that this fellow doesn't speak for the majority. However, in the U.S. media we get very little evidence to the contrary. Spliff - When doing the original research for the Aquarium, the first book I got was The Tetra Encyclopedia of The Marine Aquarium by Dick Mills. When flipping through it for the first time, I saw a picture of a Moorish Idol with this caption: "The common name of the Moorish Idol is derived from the high esteem in which the fish is held by some Moslem populations. When caught by them it is returned to the water with some ceremony." Are you saying that this statement has no basis in fact? (Like Tiny, I'm not using any sarcasm here -- I really want to know.) Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

09-18-2003, 10:34 AM	#39
Louis Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 35	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle I'm not saying Jim is insulting anyone, but labeling something "art" does not automatically make it untouchable. /Tiny Pietism If ART is limited then it will call commercial ART. Besides, it's just a screensaver running in computers. The fishes didn't change their nature. (No genetic modifications) ie. We couldn't see a human head putting on a fish's body of SA. The goal of SA simulates an aquarium as real as it could, and Jim has done it well. The first time when I saw SA running in a computer, I've got a feeling of ART but you may call it electronic ART. (remarks: it's not the name of a company)

09-18-2003, 10:46 AM	#40
Spliff Registered Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2	Originally posted by Jim Sachs TT - As I said, it is my fervent hope that this fellow doesn't speak for the majority. However, in the U.S. media we get very little evidence to the contrary. He doesn't. By rejecting science and technological progress he goes against the teachings of the Qur'an. It's quite sad to see such distorted views so widely publicised. Please read this article: http://education.guardian.co.uk/high...786006,00.html "The common name of the Moorish Idol is derived from the high esteem in which the fish is held by some Moslem populations. When caught by them it is returned to the water with some ceremony." Are you saying that this statement has no basis in fact? Jim - I'm sure that statement has some factual basis. It probably refers to some pre-islamic tradition somewhere. It has nothing to do with religion - I dare to say that those same populations holding the Moorish Idol in such a high esteem would find it quite charming on their computer screen.