apparent conflict with Display Fusion

[pvernam]

Great job! Marine Aquarium 3beta1 works fine on these configurations:

OS: Windows XP MCE 2005 SP3
Hardware: E6600, 2GB RAM, ASUS P5B-E
Graphics: ATI Radeon HD3450 512MB PCIe, Catalyst 8.9
Monitor: ASUS MW221U 22" LCD at 1680x1050x32 (~110.28 fps)

OS: Windows XP Pro SP3
Hardware: Pentium 4EE 3.4, 2GB RAM, ASUS P4C800-E
Graphics: ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon 9600XT 128MB AGP 8X, Catalyst 8.9
Monitor: Hanns-G JW-199DPB 19" LCD at 1440x900x32 (~110.28 fps)

OS: Windows XP Pro SP3
Hardware: QX6700, 2GB RAM, ASUS P5B
Graphics: nVidia GeForce 7300LE 128MB PCIe, ForceWare 93.71
Monitor: Dell 2005FP 20" LCD at 1024x768x32 (~110.55 fps)

OS: Windows XP Pro SP3
Hardware: X6800, 2GB RAM, ASUS P5B
Graphics: ATI Radeon HD2600XT 512MB PCIe, Catalyst 8.8
Monitor: Dell 2407WFP 24" LCD at 1920x1200x32 (~110.28 fps)


Marine Aquarium 3beta1 also works on this configuration but, on exit, Windows Explorer totally locks up:

OS: Windows XP MCE 2005 SP3
Hardware: E6700, 2GB RAM, ASUS P5K-E
Graphics: ATI Radeon HD2600XT 256MB PCIe, Catalyst 8.9
Monitors: Mitsubishi LT52144 52" LCD HDTV at 1920x1080x32 (~111.13 fps)
Digitech 7" LCD at 848x480x32

MA3b1 starts up and will run fine for hours. But, when I stop it, Windows Explorer dies ("Windows Explorer has encountered a problem and needs to close.") and the system becomes completely locked up (the Start menu doesn't work and clicking on desktop icons does nothing). About the only thing I can do is Ctrl-Alt-Delete to Restart Windows. This occurs even at lower resolutions (e.g., 1280x720x32). I believe this problem is caused by a conflict with the Display Fusion utility (v2.1.1, http://www.binaryfortress.com/displayfusion). When I stop this utility, MA3b1 stops with no problem, and when I restart Display Fusion, stopping MA3b1 causes the problem described above. However, I don't want to do without this utility because it allows me to set different desktop wallpaper on each monitor (e.g., a photo on the main (HDTV) screen and a solid-color background on the 7" screen).


Also, I have an enhancement suggestion that applies to this configuration: As listed above, this machine has two monitors, one of which is a 7" touchscreen LCD built-in to the front of my Zalman HD160XT HTPC case. I use this screen to display information from the ASUS motherboard monitor (PC ProbeII) and from various Yahoo Widgets (SysMonitor, Weather, analog clock, sports scores, etc.), and I would prefer that this information remain on display while the screen saver is running on the main (HDTV) screen. But MA3b1 only offers two options for each monitor:
o Display screen saver on this monitor
o Display nothing on this monitor

Would it be possible to provide a third choice, to let it continue to display whatever was running there (it is an LCD, so burn-in isn't an issue)?:
o Leave this monitor unchanged

[Jim Sachs]

Thanks for your work in tracing the problem to the Display Fusion program. Most people would just say, "The Beta crashes Windows Explorer - tell me why!" I would respond by asking if there was any unusual program running which could be affecting the video memory on a deep level. They would answer, no. Only after many hours of back-and-forth questioning would the existance of such a program become known.

It sounds like that Fusion program is fundamentally incompatible with the Aquarium, similar to using Display Properites to change the wallpaper while the Aquarium is running. When the Aquarium starts, it asks the system for resources like video RAM, then assumes that certain items will remain inviolate. If some other program changes the rules of its little universe, it might try to give back memory that it no longer owns, or something similar.

Regarding your enhancement request - probably not. That whole Display Settings section is a Microsoft thing, and it took months to get it working with multimonitors. It's extremely fragile, and I don't really want to mess with it.

[pvernam]

Originally posted by pvernam:

I believe this problem is caused by a conflict with the Display Fusion utility (v2.1.1, http://www.binaryfortress.com/displayfusion). When I stop this utility, MA3b1 stops with no problem, and when I restart Display Fusion, stopping MA3b1 causes the problem described above.  

Gacck! I just had Windows Explorer lock up when stopping MA3b1 on this machine when Display Fusion was NOT running, and I also had the Explorer not lock up while Display Fusion WAS running. So now I don't know what the problem might be (or how to diagnose it, since nothing works once the lock-up has occurred).

[pvernam]

Originally posted by pvernam:

Gacck! I just had Windows Explorer lock up when stopping MA3b1 on this machine when Display Fusion was NOT running, and I also had the Explorer not lock up while Display Fusion WAS running. So now I don't know what the problem might be (or how to diagnose it, since nothing works once the lock-up has occurred).  

OK, I've spent a fair amount of time trying different things, and I now believe the problem to somehow be with the multi-monitor setup. The only significant difference between this MCE machine (HTPC2: E6700, P5K-E, ATI HD2600XT) and my other one (HTPC1: E6600, P5B-E, ATI HD3450), other than slight hardware differences, is that this one has two monitors. So, to test that, I disconnected the VGA cable from the 7" LCD and rebooted. All of the startup programs (in the system tray) are exactly the same (I stopped Display Fusion on HTPC2). Now I can start and stop MA3 with no ill effects. In fact, it starts and stops fine even if Display Fusion is running (so I suppose we can exonerate that). I have read here that many others are using MA3 with multiple monitors with no problems (or, at least, not this one), so what can the problem be?

[Bigmouse]

MA3 does not display properly with my ATI all-in-wonder Radeon 7200 video, is that a known problem? video doesn't support MA3, please help.... I don't know how to attach a image

[Jav400]

The 7200 is a discontinued product. It has 64MB of memory, which might be ok, but at a lower resolution. I'm not an ATI fan, so I know little about those cards. Generally speaking their drivers aren't the best, so if its possible you might try a different set of drivers for that card, if you can find them.

[Jim Sachs]

pvernam - I don't run a dual-monitor setup, except for occasionally dragging the system into the other room for testing. We have several multimonitor fans here on the Forum. Maybe they have some ideas.

Bigmouse - When you say "Does not display properly", what exactly do you mean?

[Tiny Turtle]

Bigmouse,
Here's how you attach an image:
1. Click on "Go Advanced" at the bottom to open the extended reply editor
2. Type up your reply
3. Click on "Select Files to be Attached to this Post" under Attach Files.
4. Click on either of the "Browse" buttons and select your file
5. Click on Upload
6. Close the popup window
7. Click on "Submit Reply".

[Jav400]

If BM would like to post a screen and the driver versions I would be more than happy to try and help get it running for them, but honestly I'm not sure how long that will last. As Jim adds more and more to the background the overhead to run the aquarium will increase, with a card that old I'm not sure it can handle it. I would much rather in this case see BM get a less expensive newer card that will run current drivers and be good to go for the long haul.

[pvernam]

Originally posted by Bigmouse:

MA3 does not display properly with my ATI all-in-wonder Radeon 7200 video, is that a known problem? video doesn't support MA3, please help.... I don't know how to attach a image  

I believe I read somewhere in this forum (can't find it now) that MA3 requires at least DirectX 8, or perhaps DirectX 9. According to this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R100), the Radeon 7200 (R100 chip) only supports DirectX 7.

[Tiny Turtle]

Bigmouse,
Which OS and what video card driver are you using?

[jleslie]

Since it works on 32MB cards (some of the supported cards are limited to that) then 64MB should be fine (plus almost all cards can use system memory too). Using my work computer, with an ATI M9000 and 64MB I find 1920x1200 is great with Catalyst 6.5 (the last driver to support the M9000, I get over 60fps at 32 bit with lots of other stuff running) but dual monitors goes horribly wrong, even at lower resolutions. (See the "Trail behind objects" thread for screen-shots of what it looks like.) So, if you have two monitors try turning one off (hit space to get the serenescreen options).
Which driver do you use?
John

[Jav400]

That could be John. With that card being 7 years old, its anyone's guess as to the actual driver version being used. Back then the OS was ME and that adds even more problems to the mix if thats the case. ME has to be the worst OS MS ever produced, followed by the current one maybe. But, I am afraid that the architecture used in that card may not handle the aquarium in later renditions even if it does have 64MB RAM. I am currently searching to see if pvernam is correct and it only supports 7, if thats the case it won't run MA3 no matter what.

Next will be to see if any more current drivers will work with the card.

[jleslie]

The last driver to support the 7200 is Catalyst 6.11 (well, for XP anyway). If you're running XP you can get it here:
http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/x...rer300-xp.html
I've no idea how well that driver works with the aquarium though. Get older drivers here:
http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/x...evious-xp.html
(Including 6.5, which I'm using - well, I actually designed the ATi card I'm using and got a somewhat different driver from a bit of the ATi website you can't get at, but it's basically the same.)
John

[Jav400]

The truth is, historically ATI has never had near as good of a success rate with their drivers as nVidia has. There have been times where there were better ones available, but their "better" still wasn't what I would consider anything worth bragging about. Overall their rate of success isn't what it should have been for the resources they have at their disposal. They could have, and should have, produced much better results for the record than what they have

[jleslie]

Nvidia had a fair number of driver duds as well, plus they tend to let dozens of versions out the door one way or another. Back when I designed nvidia cards if they broke something it could mean testing 12 driver versions to see what did and didn't work.

I'm using mostly ATi cards these days, partly because of the sometimes better (non-3D) picture quality, partly as I designed one more recently than I did an nvidia card but partly just what was available (like when I wanted a very fast AGP card for my home system). I think they and nvidia are still close enough in most ways that the average user may well not care. There are a couple of nvidia-specific things I'm missing though, so I think I'll be back in their camp next time around.

[jleslie]

P.S. on the driver front I'd try 6.11 first...

[Jim Sachs]

John, if you designed these cards, isn't there someone you could call to tell them to get their act togther - driver-wise?

[jleslie]

We don't really do the volume to get much clout...
:-(
My desktop computer is the processor board from this pic: http://embedded-pc.microbus.com/prod...mat1040nbg.jpg
(Which I designed, I also did the Nvidia card in the pic.)
Plus this video board (which is also one I designed): http://www.format-ltd.co.il/Images/vid1080.jpg
John

[Jim Sachs]

So you don't know any of these evil driver-writers personally? Just curious about what kind of person would say, "Ah, here comes a perfectly legal DirectX command to draw a triangle at a certain spot on the screen using a certain texture....But instead, I'm going to draw it a few pixels off, with no texture at all! BWAHAHAHA!!"