Possible Bug: Starfish Inside Out?

ric · 02-21-2003, 01:53 AM

First off, let me say that I'm a very happy owner of Mac Marine Aquarium. It's perfect for me being equal parts fish fanatic and computer geek. Thanks to everyone that brought this to the Mac platform.

Now to the possible bug...

I've noticed that the starfish geometry seems to be out of whack. The "top, left" limb which should be nearest the back of the tank is drawn as if it were in front of the limb below it. If that didn't make any sense, look at the attached image to see what I mean. It's much more pronounced when the starfish has a limb or two "on the glass of the tank" or is climbing the coral. Is anyone else seeing this?

My System:
TiBook 800Mhz, 1Gig RAM, OS X 10.2.4, Marine Aquarium 1.1.3

I know the starfish has other issues on the Mac, and prehaps this is a symptom of one of those problems, but I thought it best to ask here to see if it was just me.

Thanks,

-Ric

feldon34 · 02-21-2003, 10:21 AM

That is WIERD.

Yellow Tang · 02-21-2003, 05:03 PM

Great icon!!!

JimO'Connor · 02-21-2003, 10:15 PM

I've watched the starfish for HOURS (and hours...) and have not seen that effect. Is it persistent?

In order to effectively work on the starfish I feed mine vitamins and he moves at 200x the normal speed.

For what it is worth, the starfish is about to be able to remember where he was the last time, so he doesn't always start out at the default location.

Gigazoid · 02-23-2003, 02:47 AM

I never noticed that before. Same on mine

ric · 02-23-2003, 03:07 AM

Seems I'm not alone.

I noticed this about 2 days after installing the screensaver (and app... it looks the same) and I've never seen it not do this since then, so I'm guessing it's always been that way. I've also deleted and reinstalled the app and trashed the preferences (at least the ones I could find). None of those made any difference in how the starfish looks.

I've decided that this is a feature... my starfish is just into yoga.

I've attached a series of 15 screen shots of my starfish in various deep sea yoga poses. You may notice it's very limber.

All joking aside, I'm not too worried about it... the screensaver is still gorgeous and I'm very happy with the purchase. And I'm very glad that an update is in the works to remember the starfish position.

Who knows, maybe that change will fix it... could be that being stuck in one place is what has it all stressed out and doing yoga.

-R

BobL · 02-23-2003, 08:40 AM

I don't believe I have just sat and stared at my starfish to see if it is a mutant like yours. The good news is my starfish is normal.
Yours looks like it has lost a limb and grown a new one back but in the wrong place!!
I'm sure it is still a happy little starfish.....

feldon34 · 02-23-2003, 08:41 AM

ric,

Those photos are really helpful. Thanks for taking the time to do them!

Ralph · 02-23-2003, 09:28 AM

Just a little realism.... Don't real starfish re generate their arms. Damn, Jim really knows his echinoderm.

Ralph

Jim Sachs · 02-23-2003, 11:24 AM

Looks like Z-buffering might be turned off for the starfish, and most of the polygons just happen to be drawn in the right order, making the bug hard to spot.

What's amazing is that there aren't more of these problems. Jim O. translated the whole graphics engine from Direct3D to OpenGL. Microsoft has put a lot of pressure on card manufacturers to make all their cards behave the same way for each Direct3D command. OpenGL has no such "Big Brother" pushing for standardization, so it's possible for some cards or drivers to not interpret commands exactly the same way.

ric · 02-23-2003, 12:25 PM

Thanks Jim!

After looking at your post I recalled that I ran across a preference file (the one in ~/Library/Preferences/ByHost/) that had a NoZBuffer flag.

I found the file again and sure enough it was set to true so you were right, no Z-buffer. I hand edited the flag to false and now my starfish is no longer a mutant!

Is there some way that I may have inadvertantly set that flag to true via a key command, preference setting or something?

Anyway, for anyone out there with similar problems, you may want to have them look at that setting.

And just to celebrate: I've attached a screenshot of my starfish right-side-out again.

-Ric

Michael Babin · 02-23-2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by ric
Thanks Jim!

After looking at your post I recalled that I ran across a preference file (the one in ~/Library/Preferences/ByHost/) that had a NoZBuffer flag.

I found the file again and sure enough it was set to true so you were right, no Z-buffer. I hand edited the flag to false and now my starfish is no longer a mutant!

Is there some way that I may have inadvertantly set that flag to true via a key command, preference setting or something?

The NoZBuffer setting in the preferences file corresponds to the "Economize video memory" setting in the Preferences window. The default value for the setting is "No", or false, which means use z-buffer. Checking the box in the Preferences window for "Economize video memory" changes the value of this setting to "Yes", or true, which means don't use z-buffer. If you open the preferences file and don't see the flag, then the default value is used. The simplest option is to turn off "Economize video memory" in the Preferences window. You may need to restart the application to see the effect of the setting change (doesn't always show up immediately in open windows).

Gigazoid · 02-23-2003, 08:37 PM

Turning off "Economize video memory" in the Preferences window worked for me also.
Thanks

Jim Sachs · 02-23-2003, 10:39 PM

Great! Glad that one is cleared up so easily.

ric · 02-23-2003, 11:34 PM

I feel a bit silly for calling what is actually a feature a bug... so to make some amends (while sticking with the theme), here's a starfish for your desktop. Go to http://www.ricewing.com/desktops/ to get your desktop picture, I've got one for most resolutions including the wide screen Macs.

I took this photo in January while in Belize on family vacation... I can't recommend snorkeling there highly enough.

Enjoy,

-Ric

fishbowl · 02-24-2003, 02:20 AM

ric,
Welcome to the forum! There's no reason to feel silly for asking something you did not know about.

That's what this forum is here for... to ask questions, get answers & learn things (or to just shoot the s**t or share any thoughts/comments you have on any SSA/non-SSA topic). If you feel the urge to make amends, then I think your wallpaper (gift) more than makes up for it

(very nice image, btw!)

PS, glad your a happy owner of the (Mac) Aquarium. Hope it brings you many more hours of pleasure, as it has me & others here. Since your half fish fanatic & half computer geek, I look forward to hearing (I mean reading) more from you. (btw, feel free to join us in the non-Mac sections of the forum).

Liath · 02-24-2003, 08:40 AM

Welcome Ric, and thanks for bringing up the Zbuffer issue. I'm sure there are a lot of people with the same problem.
That is a gorgeous photo by the way.

Michael Babin · 02-24-2003, 09:41 AM

Ric,
No need to feel silly at all! If anything, I'm a bit embarrassed that I hadn't noticed this effect before. I usually run the aquarium with "Economize video memory" turned off (the default), but I spend enough time testing out the various settings that I should have seen that (especially since I spent a lot of time working on porting the starfish, in particular!). Once you narrowed it down to the NoZBuffer flag, it was easy to reproduce it and explain how/why it occurred (what setting to change).

Please let us know of an other oddities you encounter or any ideas you have for enhancements/improvements. We always welcome feedback!

JimO'Connor · 02-24-2003, 04:17 PM

I'm REALLY embarassed since I implemented the "economize"/no z-buffer feature and didn't think about the cause/effect being attached to it wrt the starfish. Only use "Economize" if you get terrible performance if you don't use it. Turning off the z-buffer increases visual anomolies in the fish as well. However, it is the only way to get the hardware renderer on TiBooks with 8 meg video cards and millions of colors and some other hardware configurations.

Thanks guys!

JimO'Connor · 02-25-2003, 02:13 AM

Thanks Jim for noticing what the problem was right off the bat. I think I can minimize the "yoga" effect. However, as Jim has said on a different thread, it is always best to use the z-buffer unless you have no other choice.

02-21-2003, 10:21 AM	#2
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	That is WIERD. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-21-2003, 10:15 PM	#4
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	I've watched the starfish for HOURS (and hours...) and have not seen that effect. Is it persistent? In order to effectively work on the starfish I feed mine vitamins and he moves at 200x the normal speed. For what it is worth, the starfish is about to be able to remember where he was the last time, so he doesn't always start out at the default location. Jim O'Connor Order N Development

02-23-2003, 08:40 AM	#7
BobL Registered Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: "Silicon Fen", UK Posts: 26	I don't believe I have just sat and stared at my starfish to see if it is a mutant like yours. The good news is my starfish is normal. Yours looks like it has lost a limb and grown a new one back but in the wrong place!! I'm sure it is still a happy little starfish..... 3120 songs

02-23-2003, 08:41 AM	#8
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	ric, Those photos are really helpful. Thanks for taking the time to do them! "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-23-2003, 09:28 AM	#9
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,438	Just a little realism.... Don't real starfish re generate their arms. Damn, Jim really knows his echinoderm. Ralph Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889 – 1951) The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for.

02-21-2003, 05:03 PM	#3
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	Great icon!!!

02-23-2003, 11:24 AM	#10
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	Looks like Z-buffering might be turned off for the starfish, and most of the polygons just happen to be drawn in the right order, making the bug hard to spot. What's amazing is that there aren't more of these problems. Jim O. translated the whole graphics engine from Direct3D to OpenGL. Microsoft has put a lot of pressure on card manufacturers to make all their cards behave the same way for each Direct3D command. OpenGL has no such "Big Brother" pushing for standardization, so it's possible for some cards or drivers to not interpret commands exactly the same way. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-23-2003, 01:44 PM	#12
Michael Babin Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rowlett, Texas Posts: 199	Originally posted by ric Thanks Jim! After looking at your post I recalled that I ran across a preference file (the one in ~/Library/Preferences/ByHost/) that had a NoZBuffer flag. I found the file again and sure enough it was set to true so you were right, no Z-buffer. I hand edited the flag to false and now my starfish is no longer a mutant! Is there some way that I may have inadvertantly set that flag to true via a key command, preference setting or something? The NoZBuffer setting in the preferences file corresponds to the "Economize video memory" setting in the Preferences window. The default value for the setting is "No", or false, which means use z-buffer. Checking the box in the Preferences window for "Economize video memory" changes the value of this setting to "Yes", or true, which means don't use z-buffer. If you open the preferences file and don't see the flag, then the default value is used. The simplest option is to turn off "Economize video memory" in the Preferences window. You may need to restart the application to see the effect of the setting change (doesn't always show up immediately in open windows).

02-23-2003, 08:37 PM	#13
Gigazoid Registered Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Apple Valley, CA Posts: 10	Turning off "Economize video memory" in the Preferences window worked for me also. Thanks

02-23-2003, 10:39 PM	#14
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	Great! Glad that one is cleared up so easily. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-24-2003, 02:20 AM	#16
fishbowl Cramped Quarters Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 223	ric, Welcome to the forum! There's no reason to feel silly for asking something you did not know about. That's what this forum is here for... to ask questions, get answers & learn things (or to just shoot the s**t or share any thoughts/comments you have on any SSA/non-SSA topic). If you feel the urge to make amends, then I think your wallpaper (gift) more than makes up for it (very nice image, btw!) PS, glad your a happy owner of the (Mac) Aquarium. Hope it brings you many more hours of pleasure, as it has me & others here. Since your half fish fanatic & half computer geek, I look forward to hearing (I mean reading) more from you. (btw, feel free to join us in the non-Mac sections of the forum).

02-24-2003, 08:40 AM	#17
Liath Still here in spirit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan Posts: 637	Welcome Ric, and thanks for bringing up the Zbuffer issue. I'm sure there are a lot of people with the same problem. That is a gorgeous photo by the way. Liath Appleton University of Michigan Museum of Zoology My Homepage Why I've been gone

02-24-2003, 09:41 AM	#18
Michael Babin Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rowlett, Texas Posts: 199	Ric, No need to feel silly at all! If anything, I'm a bit embarrassed that I hadn't noticed this effect before. I usually run the aquarium with "Economize video memory" turned off (the default), but I spend enough time testing out the various settings that I should have seen that (especially since I spent a lot of time working on porting the starfish, in particular!). Once you narrowed it down to the NoZBuffer flag, it was easy to reproduce it and explain how/why it occurred (what setting to change). Please let us know of an other oddities you encounter or any ideas you have for enhancements/improvements. We always welcome feedback!

02-24-2003, 04:17 PM	#19
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	I'm REALLY embarassed since I implemented the "economize"/no z-buffer feature and didn't think about the cause/effect being attached to it wrt the starfish. Only use "Economize" if you get terrible performance if you don't use it. Turning off the z-buffer increases visual anomolies in the fish as well. However, it is the only way to get the hardware renderer on TiBooks with 8 meg video cards and millions of colors and some other hardware configurations. Thanks guys! Jim O'Connor Order N Development

02-25-2003, 02:13 AM	#20
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	Thanks Jim for noticing what the problem was right off the bat. I think I can minimize the "yoga" effect. However, as Jim has said on a different thread, it is always best to use the z-buffer unless you have no other choice. Jim O'Connor Order N Development Last edited by feldon34; 02-25-2003 at 07:54 AM.