Should it maintain backwards compatibility?

[Digital Lungfish]

Jim,

Don't let anyone discourage you by any means, please keep up the great work. We all appreciate what you're doing and what you've gone through and we can't wait to see the fruits of your labor. Thanks again for everything!

- DL

Regarding anything 3D, namely games. Game developers have basically come to 3 conclusions.

1- Ignore the potential for killer graphics and game play, but keep a greater compatibility for those with older computer hardware.

2- Develop the games to take full advantage of the latest greatest, which will leave out those with slower hardware, but make the real hardcore game players happy.

3- Go to console only games ie: PS2, XBox, Game Cube, etc., and get the best compatibility of all.

Most game developers are now going with choices 2 and 3. They are realizing that it is the hardcore game players that are their bread and butter. It isn't that they want to screw the people with older slower hardware, they are just tired of having their games and the full potential of them hampered by hardware. Going with the latest greatest hardware gives them the absolute best game they can make. It is a matter of quality in their product.

You have to decide for yourself what you want out of the program, and not let the masses influence your creativity. Though the poll clearly shows the masses are behind you on this one.

Give us all you got!!

[asprague]

I believe you would have a stronger argument if you showed a definite relationship between "hard core game players" and soft core screen saver users. IMHO, there is *not* one, and this is what is consistently overlooked.

[FishyBusiness]

Swiftmon,

I think that reason why companies make games that cannot be played on older hardware is to keep the comsumer on the upgrade cycle. If people didn't upgrade all of the time then a lot of computer companies will be out of business.

The industry does this a few ways. One major way is to keep the comsumer thinking that they need to have the lastest, greatest hardware to get their email or play Jim's aquarium. I have a GeForce2 GTS 32mb video card. The fill rate will max out with a PIII 750. So a 1GHz processor is not needed for playing games.

A second way is sloppiness. A lot of programmers start getting sloppy with their writting. This happens mostly because the companies they work for push them and have them release a game before it's time. Then the comsumer needs a fast computer to play the games on.

Make no mistake, when it comes to the computer industry, money is GOD. They will do anything to make a fast buck.

That is why I am here supporting Jim as much as I can with the little knowledge I have. He does not do this. He is on time limits but his work does not suffer.

Take care,

Frank

[feldon34]

FishyBusiness,

No offense but that's bullcrap.

People have new hardware and they want to use it. And developers have artists who want to create games that use the system to the fullest extent. Quake 3, which I consider a newer product, will run just fine on older video cards, provided you are willing to run them at a lower resolution.

Your system, a 32MB GeForce GTS and a Pentium III 750 is what I consider top of the line or near it. I'd probably be happy with a GeForce 2 MX. And no offense but Pentium III and 4 are overpriced and overhyped. An overclocked Celeron for a fraction of the price, or an AMD Thunderbird or Duron at a fraction of the price and actually faster at 1/3rd the price of the top of the line P3's. And AMD solved their compatibility problems a few years ago. Intel's partnership with RAMBus was a very costly mistake too. Frankly, I think that Intel's reign is over.

And you use the term sloppiness. It's rushed deadlines (as you mention). If the developers were given the proper amount of time, we'd have better software. Jim mentions an off-hand date and then it comes out a week later. I don't find it unusual or objectionable. Sure we're all drooling for the latest and greatest. But whenever *I* guess a date on a project, I always find it to be an extremely conservative estimate of the development time involved. Now when I guess a date, I double it and give the customer THAT date.

And I don't think 99% of developers have anything to gain from new hardware or vice versa. It's not like nVidia owns Id or Electronic Arts. The consumers and the artistic types at the companies push the upgrades.

Do you feel cheated that there is a Playstation 2 system now which means developers will stop writing for the first generation (1995) Playstation? I don't. The Playstation hardware is so weak that games are continually hitting the limitations of the system. 320 x 240 16 bit color is pretty awful now, even on a smallish TV set.

The bottom line is, the Aquarium works well on 3D cards running $100 6 years ago. That's a long time in computer years. My first reaction to the 3D background was that it would require a LOT more power to run. However I think Jim has allayed our fears, and poll results show that even if it required significantly upgraded hardware than it does now (TnT Riva 16mb which runs $15 used), people either already have adequate hardware, or are willing to buy it.

Remember that the people who are running the Aquarium did not casually happen upon it. They were actively searching for 3D screen savers through search engines, affiliated sites, or mentions in 3D-focused gaming/enthusiast magazines.

If Jim advertised the Aquarium to the general public as something that ran on "Anything" and then pulled the rug out from under everyone with a new version requiring substantial 3D hardware, then yes we'd be upset. I don't think has tried to deceive anyone like this.

If you want to run the big games like Unreal Tournament, Half-Life, or Giants then of course it requires top notch hardware. These games are advertised as such and make no claims otherwise.

I didn't upgrade my computer for Windows 98 or 2000, I just happened to have the necessary hardware for it and I consider my computer to be pretty out of date (P2-450, 96MB ram, TnT Riva 16MB).

[FishyBusiness]

Morgan,

You should try to look at the AMD and Intel roadmaps for the next year. They are very enlightning. Then you will see how companies try to get the public to upgrade every six months to a year.

I agree with you about Intel. There products are overpriced. That is why I do NOT own any Intel products. AMD is the same performance and stability for less money.

The only reason why I own a GeForce2 GTS 32mb is because it was bought for my birthday last year. I am an adult who likes to play games every now and then but my 3DBlaster Banshee mixed with my k6-2 400 wasn't up to par with some of the games I like to play. I would've been happy if I received a TNT2 ULTRA. But like I said, companies want me to upgrade so they stopped making the TNT2 ULTRA.

Jim's aquarium does run on just about any machine. I have seen it. It definitly runs well on an S3. One does not have to get a super fast machine to run the aquarium.

Comsumers do push for upgrades but here in America it's mainly because we think that we need the biggest and best of everything to do the most mundane tasks. That is just marketing ploy and the American tradition of material gluttony. You know how many people I see driving a brand new SUV and have one or two kids? I see it everywhere I go. My Father, who is now retired, just bought a sportscar to drive to the store and back. That car will never see 80mph. He should have just bought a 3 cylinder Geo Metro.

Programmers have a lot to gain from getting people to upgrade their hardware. If a company makes a game that can only be played on GHz machines, they will lose a lot of money if everyone owned a k6-2 500. The whole industry is connected. They are not seperate enties that never talk to each other. They get together and make the standards for everything. Then they go out and make hardware and tell us that we need it to get email or something else that is just a simple task.

Everything in the U.S is very controlled. Did you know that in the U.S. there are three major soft drink companies that make all of those 30 or choices in the stores? The U.S is so controlled now that they have gotten us Americans to think that we need more controll. People are always saying we need more laws for this...more laws for that.

The same thing is happening with the computer industry. They rush out computer products to make a fast dollar. They all get together and talk to each other and do the same thing so that we, the consumer, have no choice but to buy their flawed products, and test their new beta software. If I bought a car, then I can take it back if something is wrong with it. Software: If you opened it, it's yours. Hardware I can take back but like I said before they package the same things just with different names. The Iomega 12x4x32 CD-RW is really a Sanyo CRD BP900. The Iomega 12x10x32 CD-RW is really a Plextor 12x10x32. If I have a problem with the Via Chipset then I just can't buy any motherboard since most of them use the Via chipset in them. There are some motherboards that use different chips, like SIS chips, but they are just not up to par. I could go with Intel but....you know.

The P4 1.5GHz is no faster than a P3 1GHz. Once the P4 gets faster clock cycles then and starts to use a DDR platform then it will be a lot better. I am sure that AMD has something to combat that situation.

Once again, there are exceptions to the rules that man has created. One of them is Jim's aquarium. It is in Beta stage but for the most part it is s very stable program. I do understand that Jim never said that it will run on any machine. As I said, It is the pressure of outside forces that has him updating it to DX8. I am sure that he won't try to rush it before it's time. Most programmers that I have talked to hate it when the company they work for rushes them. But the company they work for is the one that pays them. I think Jim is pretty much a Lone Ranger when it comes to his company.

When it comes to it, all that matters when buying a computer or part is asking yourself, "What am I going to do with the computer." For probably 80% of America, a TNT2 Ultra with a P2 450 is just fine. I just get mad when I hear the salesman at CompUSA telling people that they need a 800MHz system+ to get their email.

Well that it's for now. We can talk about this some more. I love debating. It helps me grow and learn. By the way, you definitly did not offend me.

Take Care,

Frank

[feldon34]

Agreed, the Pentium 4 is absolute crap.

You know who are the worst for pushing upgrades? Compaq!

Their systems have such poorly written motherboard BIOSes, drivers, and system utilities and system tray icons that a Pentium III 733 Compaq probably runs 1/3rd the speed of a Pentium III 733 system I could build myself with good components for the same price or less.

I am running P2-450. I tried a Compaq P3-700 and I couldn't stand it. It was so much slower.

As for games, if you turn down the detail, you should be able to run even the newer games at 800 x 600 on your existing card, no?


And about AMD roadmap for next year. The switchover to DDR RAM is unfortunate because less than 2% need or want it. I hope they keep SDRAM motherboards in production for a long time. They might be trying to do the diehard fans a favor with slightly faster RAM but it hurts the rest of us.

People do get pressured into buying newer computers. Honestly, Intel, AMD, etc. should be expecting a slowdown. The Internet was what kept them going so long now. Because there was no killer app requiring mainstream to upgrade their computer. I think Office 2000 is pushing upgrades because it's such an enormously wasteful program that requires a lot of system resources for a word processor.

I wouldn't be surprised if developers get kickbacks from Intel or AMD for making their programs require faster hardware.

I don't know why they put an Iomega name on a Plextor drive. Plextor is well-known (At least in computer tech circles) as always had impeccible product. Iomega makes overpriced garbage drives and discs that break 2 days after the warranty. I own a dead Zip drive, Jaz drive, and several cartriges for each. All told $800 worth of stuff.


My previous car was a Mustang and I was tempted to get another one except for the practicality, gasoline cost, etc. I arrived at the choice of the PT Cruiser from some pressure/encouragement from my dad, but it's turned out to be practical for everything I do. It could have a more powerful engine but not a big deal. I really wish there was a hybrid engine available for it. I would have paid the extra for it. For the environment, and the gas savings. I've always thought the idea of sitting at a traffic light and knowing that I'm not contributing CO to the environment really knocks me. Of course I had to get the black one .

[Digital Lungfish]

"1- Ignore the potential for killer graphics and game play, but keep a greater compatibility for those with older computer hardware."

You're not too far off base here, but to be more precise, developers usually try to strike a balance for gameplay, graphics, and compatibility if they can help it. The PC hardware limitations do tend to hamper this considerably though. Having to develop a new game that works on anything from a P200 on up to a 1GHz system is why many of the best developers out there have jumped ship from PC development to console-only.

Since the Game Cube, Game Boy Advance, and XBox are all geared for easier development (unlike the PS2 and it's well known texture ram limitations among other things), it's really no surprise at all. Of course this isn't to say that the PC is going to take a huge nose dive like many have thought, but it will take a noticeable loss in one way or another.

As for letting the masses influence a developer's creativity, well if it weren't for the "masses", there would be no need for the product in the first place.

- DL

[feldon34]

Well, Game Cube will follow Nintendo's footsteps of the N64. This means they won't let any bright, young, slightly radicaly developers get involved. So it will just be age 6-13 games again like the last system.

Oh, and the X-Box uses video hardware that won't be available on a 3D card at home til spring 2002 at the earliest.

X-Box is in such better shape than Sony PS2. Much easier to develop for, no texture limitations (Sony PS2 has 48MB of RAM but only 4 MB textures!!!!), no flicker/jitter. Also, X-Box is designed with forward compatibility and support of HDTVs. PS2 isn't. Hell, even Dreamcast has more HDTV support than PS2 does.

[Digital Lungfish]

"Well, Game Cube will follow Nintendo's footsteps of the N64. This means they won't let any bright, young, slightly radicaly developers get involved. So it will just be age 6-13 games again like the last system."

Hey now, I never said anything in defense of Nintendo's business practices! Even though the number and type of developers that Nintendo uses may not be what fans expect, the quality of the games released on their systems are at least on the high end.

As for XBox, I'll take a "wait and see" attitude. If the hardware can in fact do what it promises (whenever they friggen finalize it that is), then I'll express true interest in it then. This could very well be a case of too much hype and too little promise, a commmon practice in the game industry, but I doubt it this time.

When it comes to the PS2, yeah it's a pain in the ass. I can't get into specifics, but it's limitations did give us quite a few headaches during the development of Smuggler's Run and Midnight Club. I own one, but only because I needed a DVD player and some of the games that are coming out for it interest me (SSX, Starfighter, ZOE, Metal Gear Solid).

- DL

Yes I think it would be better to maintain backwards compatibility. Some of us still have some old low level systems that are not up to speed like the store's 1.5ghz/512mb demo computer.

I am running Win2K on an IBM TP 600e at 400mhz with 256mb of ram. I just downloaded the demo and it is running very choppy. I downloaded the lastest drivers for my video card (POC) and the Directx8a, and it is still choppy at 640x480.

Is there anything more that I can do to my system before I upgrade to the registered version this fabulous screensaver??

[feldon34]

Inque,

Sachs Aquarium was never designed to run on a laptop.

Sorry, but until manufacturers put 3D chipsets in laptops there is nothing Jim can do.

[Jim Sachs]

Many of the very latest notebook computers have suitable 3D chips. A computer with a Rage Mobility or S3 Savage chip should work fine. The NeoMagic chip will not work.

If a laptop is more than 6 months old, it almost certainly won't have a suitable 3D chip.

Many people continue to order the Aquarium without testing it on their computer first, just because they saw it working on someone else's computer. Having a proper 3D chip is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. I have provided the RGB Emulation mode so that people without one can at least see something on their screen, but I spend a huge amount of my day dealing with people who can't understand why they are only getting 1 frame-per-second. They are angry because other screensavers appear to work normally, but those programs are usually just slideshows that run at about 1 frame per MINUTE.

The Aquarium is not a traditional screensaver. It is a pedal-to-the-metal 3D application that can be used as a screensaver. It will run on most desktop computers made in the last 2 years, and a few laptops. It will not run on your Rage 1 chip, toaster, microwave oven or cel phone. I have not just made try-before-you-buy available, it is step number 1 on the Purchase Page.

--- Jim Sachs

[asprague]

If angry, confused customers is an *ongoing and continuing* problem, then perhaps an extra step should be placed in the *order-taking* process to remind potential customers that your SS is a "pedal-to-the-metal 3D application."

I keep saying the the "Aquarium going crowd" is not at all represented by the folks who comment here. If these people continue to *not* understand the "try-before-you-buy available, ...is step number 1 on the Purchase Page," then you are not writing at a level that they understand. The rule of KISS must always be kept in mind.

Arnold

[feldon34]

Arnold,

I don't think it's POSSIBLE to write to the level you describe. Every once in a while, I get an e-mail from someone who thinks that *I* wrote the Aquarium and wants me to fix some problem that happened with their order or credit card.

Is there anything on my website that would lead you to believe that I wrote the Aquarium?

[asprague]

Hi Morgan,

What I have been expressing all along is that the problems Jim is *now* experiencing with a program totally unadvertised is but a precursor of what is going to happen once the mass of the Aquarium-going crowd gets its hands on his program. That's what I tried to explain on the topic I started, "The Testosterone Crowd." Jim is dealing with folks who do not read, cannot read, and/or do not fully understand the limitations of their hardware. And a great many of the Aquarium-going crowd will not even know what "hardware" is.

You are also experiencing the same thing in that your visitors are not reading carefully enough at your web site to realize that you are not the author. It's clear to me that you are NOT the author. But, but, but, if others do not know that, then you are not writing clearly enough. One has to assume that it is the author (no matter how talented), not the reader, who has the problem.

It has never been my intention to bad-mouth Jim or you. And I do not mean to denigrate Jim's great SS. All that I have ever meant to say is that these are warning shots across your bows which must be addressed now and not after Jim's program is released.

I would look at these folks who own minimum hardware and who have an inability to read critically as beta testers. One *should* be thanking them for their input.

Arnold

After the project is complete, one would expect the finished work, to be in tune with current technology. Taking such a wonderful work, as the Aquarium and not using, the 3D
potential of todays cards, would be sad. As I recall this was to be a 3D work, and to make the background equal, to the fish would only complete the concept.

This screensaver will remain a hallmark to Aqua fans for alongtime. Computers get faster daily, so if I were Jim, I'd always strive towards forward looking works. Longevity is one thing this, above almost all screensavers already has.
The future sales potential which allows for future productions, is really evident. Looking ahead I am very hopeful to someday see " Aquarium 2 - The Jim Sach's Story "!

On my Geforce1 DDR(Asus V6800 Deluxe), Celeron 366@550, 256MB ram, I get the following framerates with D3D vsynch off/sound off/bubbles on/auto lights off/displaying the same 7 fish with each version:

640x480x16: [99G 118fps] [99H 128fps]
800x600x16: [99G 118fps] [99H 128fps]
1024x768x16: [99G 118fps] [99H 128fps]
1152x864x16: [99G 108fps] [99H 118fps]
1280x1024x16: [99G 84fps] [99H 98fps]
1600x1200x16: [99G 69fps] [99H 74fps]

My maximum monitor refresh rates are 120Hz for 640x480, 120Hz for 800x600, 100Hz for 1024x768, 100Hz for 1152x864, 85Hz for 1280x1024, and 72Hz for 1600x1200. So, when I turn on vsynch, I always the get maximum framerate possible with my maximum monitor refresh rate. Since I'm using a card that's now 2 generations old, I think it would be safe to go ahead with adding fully 3d-rendered scenary and shadows and all the rest of that neat stuff. 32bpp rendering would also kick ass!

[feldon34]

Just as an update for anyone who's wondering how/where this poll has gone, Jim is proceeding with the DirectX 8 rewrite (.99H was a bump in the road to give us some more fish while he continues work on the big update).

After that, I'm guessing the 3D background will be next. It IS happening!

Jim ultimately plans (As revealed in the chatroom) to have 2 entire screenfuls of 3D coral (which introduces the possibly of turning on more than 7 fish at one time) and the 'camera' will slowly pan from left to right. Not only will this look really cool (you CAN lock the camera if you want--I think) but it will really bring out the 3D effect. Jim said he's done some early tests/experiments and it looks really phenomenal. The fish already look unreal with the 3D shutter glasses, with the background, the illusion should be complete!

Jim is putting all of these things in the Aquarium:

-3D moving coral (sea anemones that sway in the water)
-Mandarinfish, Lionfish (listed separately because of how difficult they are)
-Coral Shrimp
-Free swimming Octopus (about the size of the Regal Tang) that changes color and squirts ink
-One or more semi-transparent fish species (for the rabid freshwater fish fanatics who want something similar)
-More fish of course

Jim has expressed sincere interest in putting these things in the Aquarium:

-Sea Horses
-a Shark or two
-An Eel poking out of the coral reef
-A free-swimming ribbon Eel
-Cleaner Wrasse

Hi, in reference to your Compaq statement, I'll give a bit more insight since I used to work there Let's start with their desktop systems. Their Presario line really does use low-quality boards, though it doesn't hurt them much in speed, but in failures and DOA. Deskpro's and their servers use high quality parts though. As for their laptops, stay away from the Presario 1200/12XL series! I don't think I can stress that enough, they are true crap! The other laptop series are better quality though (though, the 14XL series are UGLY). As far as the Presario series goes, the 1700/17XL's tend to be the most reliable. I have a 17XL260 and am very happy with it (I do love employee discounts ). And, the Armada series are like the Deskpro's, generally meant for business use and very high quality (though, also very expensive). But, the first thing to do when you get a Compaq computer is wipe the hard drive and do a clean install! That will bring the system up to speed. Compaq just installs WAY TOO MUCH crap on their systems which slows them down and makes them unstable. A clean install of the OS will solve the speed issue and make them more stable. I installed Win2k Pro on my laptop and it works great. Okay, I'm done rambline