Fish animation when turning

Vasquez · 05-14-2002, 09:24 AM

Hi Jim or Feldon,

Are there any plans to work on the animation of the fish when they turn around (ie: make it more realistic).

Whilst the program truely is a work of art, and the best £15 I have ever spent, the only thing that let's it down, in my eye's, is the movement of the fish when they turn.

In all fairness it's not that bad, but against the outstanding quality of the rest of the program, it does stand out.

Cheers
Vaz

Jim Sachs · 05-14-2002, 10:44 AM

I don't quite follow you. What would you suggest?

IXNAY · 05-14-2002, 11:15 AM

I think the turning of the fish is really realistic...

Socrates · 05-14-2002, 11:21 AM

From other threads and conversations, I seem to remember that some little mechanical things were done with the fins when the lionfish turns to avoid collisions.

BUT none of the turning ever struck me as unrealisitic in the least. Not even now that I am looking to see if it is.

Yellow Tang · 05-14-2002, 11:26 AM

I have another "animation" question: are there plans to animate some fishes in another way? I have seen a different movement in a real tank (i think it was a blue powder tang), both side-fins are moved forward and back at the same time and then they swim a bit up and down. Looks funny.

Jim Sachs · 05-14-2002, 11:51 AM

Absolutely. I have always planned on adding movement and behavior based on species.

Vasquez · 05-14-2002, 01:51 PM

Jim,

It's quite difficult to expain in words but I'll give it a go... :-)

I haven't sat and studied all the fish but some, for example the Pecula Clown, have quite a 'mechanical' feel to them when they turn (compared to some of the others).

Sometime's it looks like the fish is 'almost' rotating without either a body turn or kick/turn of the tail etc.

Sometimes I have seen them turn and move up or down in a very iagonal manner.

I guess this is all in perspective though, I still think they turn pretty realisictly but given the quality of the other swimming movements and the quality of the models, it stands out.

Of course, I seem to be the only one seeing this so maybe my eye's need testing or I need shooting for being to 'picky' :-)

Cheers
Vaz

feldon34 · 05-14-2002, 04:19 PM

The diagonal movement is for avoidance.

The Percula Clown swims exactly the same as all the other fish. Therein lies the problem

Vasquez · 05-14-2002, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by feldon23
The Percula Clown swims exactly the same as all the other fish. Therein lies the problem

Ah that explains a lot then. For some of the fish it is spot on and for other's it does look a little peculiar (no pun intended) :-)

Sounds like Jim is already on-top of it though, by adding movement and behaviour for each species.

Thanks for the feedback.

Regards
Vaz

Digital Lungfish · 05-15-2002, 02:16 AM

I guess this is all in perspective though, I still think they turn pretty realisictly but given the quality of the other swimming movements and the quality of the models, it stands out.
Of course, I seem to be the only one seeing this

No, you're not the only one seeing this, I've noticed it for some time as well. I neglected to bring it to Jim's attention because I thought it would be cleared up when he began making final AI and animation changes to each of the different species. Basically, I just chalked it up to unfinished work pending completion, but it is noticable and obvious for anyone that understands how fish swim, turn, and move through the water.

It is very difficult to describe and it is random, but what I'm seeing is a fish will turn part of the way in a realistic manner (head moves through the path with the body and tail following), then the last part of the turn the fish looks more like it's sliding on a moving pivot (instead of the head leading the way, the middle of the body follows the path). In any case, you just have to watch the fish for a while, watch as they turn near the sides of the aquarium, eventually you will see it.

feldon34 · 05-15-2002, 08:07 AM

Jim has come 10 times farther than any other artist in making realistic fish animation. But there is still a long distance to go.

I went to a friend's with a saltwater tank. I know for certain that Tangs don't swim like they do in the Aquarium. They dart about, swim backwards, turn on a dime with quick fin thrusts, etc.

glenramsey · 05-15-2002, 10:26 AM

I have noticed this with the Pecula Clown too. The best way I could describe it would be this fish appears "stiffer" when turning but only if you watch the tricky blighter for more than 4 hours, doing no work, as I have done today!! :-)
I just emailed my girlfriend telling her I plan to create an aquarium in the bedroom with a computer monitor using Jim's screensaver. She said "we will have to discuss this" - she hasn't see the screensaver yet :-)

Vasquez · 05-15-2002, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by glenramsey
She said "we will have to discuss this"

ROFL... ahhh that familiar old saying... time to visit the flower shop :-)

Vaz

Digital Lungfish · 05-16-2002, 11:01 AM

Jim has come 10 times farther than any other artist in making realistic fish animation.

I totally agree Morgan, he definately has. In fact, the only other program that has even come close was that Breen (sp?) screensaver. I can't think of any other programs other than that.

As for this turning issue, it's just a random bug and doesn't reflect the actual quality of Jim's fish animation. If I made it sound like I was questioning the quality of the animation, then that's my mistake and I apologize for that. As far as I'm concerned, the fish all move VERY convincingly, so Jim has done a great job so far. The only thing left is to give each of the fish it's own AI and animation, but that's later on down the line as Jim has pointed out.

I know for certain that Tangs don't swim like they do in the Aquarium.

Very true, Tangs (at least Regal Tangs) swim very much like a bird flies through the air. They flap their fins like a bird flaps it's wings.

CephaloP · 05-16-2002, 03:09 PM

The "mechanical fish turning" is something I also noticed, but never got around to posting about. The fish basically seem to freeze in place while an invisible hand slowly rotates them on an axis. Depending on the type of fish, in RL you would see a stronger tail flick to the side the fish was turning, especially for a quick turn, and/or using the pectoral fin on the opposite side of the turn for slower pivots.

I'm glad someone else brought this up, I felt like I was just being too picky. But the longer I've had the Aquarium the more I notice this, and it really does destroy the illusion of reality to watch the fish turn.

feldon34 · 05-16-2002, 03:51 PM

The collision system in the Aquarium right now was put in as a compromise with the 2D flat background we have now.

The tank has two layers, front and back. A fish can switch layers, but it only has two possible layers to swim in, front or back.

Also, there is no real collision detection. It is, in fact, spherical area avoidance. literally, treat each fish as if it were a sphere, and keep the spheres from overlapping.

Hopefully with the 3D background, each fish will be represented not as an imaginary sphere, which produces the awkward turning and up-down avoidance stuff, to where two fish can sidestep just enough to get around each other. Also, it won't be 2 fixed depths, but hopefully either unlimited, or many more possible depths that the fish can swim.

IXNAY · 05-17-2002, 05:09 AM

sounds cool

Quango · 05-20-2002, 11:25 PM

I must say that i too have noticed that weird sensation when the smaller fish get to the edge of the tank, start to turn then are stunned and slowly get swiveled around with no tail/body/fin movement. The larger fish like the lionfish do not seem to do this.

Maybe the smaller fish couls be 'sped up' on the turn, so that the freezing is instantaneous and much less noticable, or maybe they could have some animation as they turn. not sure of the technical aspects of this, i assumes that since they are 3d objects then they could be just as easily drawn and animated frontways as sideways.

But i'm not a successfull programmer that produced such a fantastic program, so what the hey! Anway, congrats on a fantastic piece of software, i have yet to see anything else that comes close, even for 100 times the price!

Well done

Quango

Jim Sachs · 05-20-2002, 11:56 PM

It's not really worth the time to change the movement algorithm, since it will be thrown away when the 3D background is done anyway.

Axle · 05-28-2002, 12:56 AM

Whoa! Now i cant wait for the 3D background even more.

I always find myself looking at the top left of the tank and try to figure out if that is, as i think, some tentacled animone frozen in 2D.

But hey, at least the fish do turn! Im sure it would have a similar effect if the fish swam off screen then entered again facing back in...but Jim doesnt appear to settle for cheap shortcuts.

Still holding my breath for the update

05-14-2002, 09:24 AM	#1
Vasquez Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10	Fish animation when turning Hi Jim or Feldon, Are there any plans to work on the animation of the fish when they turn around (ie: make it more realistic). Whilst the program truely is a work of art, and the best £15 I have ever spent, the only thing that let's it down, in my eye's, is the movement of the fish when they turn. In all fairness it's not that bad, but against the outstanding quality of the rest of the program, it does stand out. Cheers Vaz

05-14-2002, 10:44 AM	#2
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	I don't quite follow you. What would you suggest? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-14-2002, 11:15 AM	#3
IXNAY Green Frog Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 840	I think the turning of the fish is really realistic... IXNAY dreaming of the serene terrarium - My Private Homepage -

05-14-2002, 11:21 AM	#4
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	From other threads and conversations, I seem to remember that some little mechanical things were done with the fins when the lionfish turns to avoid collisions. BUT none of the turning ever struck me as unrealisitic in the least. Not even now that I am looking to see if it is. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

05-14-2002, 11:51 AM	#6
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	Absolutely. I have always planned on adding movement and behavior based on species. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-14-2002, 11:26 AM	#5
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	I have another "animation" question: are there plans to animate some fishes in another way? I have seen a different movement in a real tank (i think it was a blue powder tang), both side-fins are moved forward and back at the same time and then they swim a bit up and down. Looks funny.

05-14-2002, 01:51 PM	#7
Vasquez Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10	Jim, It's quite difficult to expain in words but I'll give it a go... :-) I haven't sat and studied all the fish but some, for example the Pecula Clown, have quite a 'mechanical' feel to them when they turn (compared to some of the others). Sometime's it looks like the fish is 'almost' rotating without either a body turn or kick/turn of the tail etc. Sometimes I have seen them turn and move up or down in a very iagonal manner. I guess this is all in perspective though, I still think they turn pretty realisictly but given the quality of the other swimming movements and the quality of the models, it stands out. Of course, I seem to be the only one seeing this so maybe my eye's need testing or I need shooting for being to 'picky' :-) Cheers Vaz

05-14-2002, 04:19 PM	#8
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	The diagonal movement is for avoidance. The Percula Clown swims exactly the same as all the other fish. Therein lies the problem "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-14-2002, 04:36 PM	#9
Vasquez Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10	Originally posted by feldon23 The Percula Clown swims exactly the same as all the other fish. Therein lies the problem Ah that explains a lot then. For some of the fish it is spot on and for other's it does look a little peculiar (no pun intended) :-) Sounds like Jim is already on-top of it though, by adding movement and behaviour for each species. Thanks for the feedback. Regards Vaz

05-15-2002, 02:16 AM	#10
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	I guess this is all in perspective though, I still think they turn pretty realisictly but given the quality of the other swimming movements and the quality of the models, it stands out. Of course, I seem to be the only one seeing this No, you're not the only one seeing this, I've noticed it for some time as well. I neglected to bring it to Jim's attention because I thought it would be cleared up when he began making final AI and animation changes to each of the different species. Basically, I just chalked it up to unfinished work pending completion, but it is noticable and obvious for anyone that understands how fish swim, turn, and move through the water. It is very difficult to describe and it is random, but what I'm seeing is a fish will turn part of the way in a realistic manner (head moves through the path with the body and tail following), then the last part of the turn the fish looks more like it's sliding on a moving pivot (instead of the head leading the way, the middle of the body follows the path). In any case, you just have to watch the fish for a while, watch as they turn near the sides of the aquarium, eventually you will see it. Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday... Last edited by Digital Lungfish; 05-15-2002 at 02:23 AM.

05-15-2002, 08:07 AM	#11
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Jim has come 10 times farther than any other artist in making realistic fish animation. But there is still a long distance to go. I went to a friend's with a saltwater tank. I know for certain that Tangs don't swim like they do in the Aquarium. They dart about, swim backwards, turn on a dime with quick fin thrusts, etc. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-15-2002, 10:26 AM	#12
glenramsey Registered Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 12	I have noticed this with the Pecula Clown too. The best way I could describe it would be this fish appears "stiffer" when turning but only if you watch the tricky blighter for more than 4 hours, doing no work, as I have done today!! :-) I just emailed my girlfriend telling her I plan to create an aquarium in the bedroom with a computer monitor using Jim's screensaver. She said "we will have to discuss this" - she hasn't see the screensaver yet :-)

05-15-2002, 12:11 PM	#13
Vasquez Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 10	Originally posted by glenramsey She said "we will have to discuss this" ROFL... ahhh that familiar old saying... time to visit the flower shop :-) Vaz

05-16-2002, 11:01 AM	#14
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	Jim has come 10 times farther than any other artist in making realistic fish animation. I totally agree Morgan, he definately has. In fact, the only other program that has even come close was that Breen (sp?) screensaver. I can't think of any other programs other than that. As for this turning issue, it's just a random bug and doesn't reflect the actual quality of Jim's fish animation. If I made it sound like I was questioning the quality of the animation, then that's my mistake and I apologize for that. As far as I'm concerned, the fish all move VERY convincingly, so Jim has done a great job so far. The only thing left is to give each of the fish it's own AI and animation, but that's later on down the line as Jim has pointed out. I know for certain that Tangs don't swim like they do in the Aquarium. Very true, Tangs (at least Regal Tangs) swim very much like a bird flies through the air. They flap their fins like a bird flaps it's wings. Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...

05-16-2002, 03:09 PM	#15
CephaloP lurking in the shadows... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: just a few paces south o' the old willow Posts: 151	The "mechanical fish turning" is something I also noticed, but never got around to posting about. The fish basically seem to freeze in place while an invisible hand slowly rotates them on an axis. Depending on the type of fish, in RL you would see a stronger tail flick to the side the fish was turning, especially for a quick turn, and/or using the pectoral fin on the opposite side of the turn for slower pivots. I'm glad someone else brought this up, I felt like I was just being too picky. But the longer I've had the Aquarium the more I notice this, and it really does destroy the illusion of reality to watch the fish turn.

05-16-2002, 03:51 PM	#16
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	The collision system in the Aquarium right now was put in as a compromise with the 2D flat background we have now. The tank has two layers, front and back. A fish can switch layers, but it only has two possible layers to swim in, front or back. Also, there is no real collision detection. It is, in fact, spherical area avoidance. literally, treat each fish as if it were a sphere, and keep the spheres from overlapping. Hopefully with the 3D background, each fish will be represented not as an imaginary sphere, which produces the awkward turning and up-down avoidance stuff, to where two fish can sidestep just enough to get around each other. Also, it won't be 2 fixed depths, but hopefully either unlimited, or many more possible depths that the fish can swim. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-17-2002, 05:09 AM	#17
IXNAY Green Frog Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 840	sounds cool IXNAY dreaming of the serene terrarium - My Private Homepage -

05-20-2002, 11:25 PM	#18
Quango Registered Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 2	I must say that i too have noticed that weird sensation when the smaller fish get to the edge of the tank, start to turn then are stunned and slowly get swiveled around with no tail/body/fin movement. The larger fish like the lionfish do not seem to do this. Maybe the smaller fish couls be 'sped up' on the turn, so that the freezing is instantaneous and much less noticable, or maybe they could have some animation as they turn. not sure of the technical aspects of this, i assumes that since they are 3d objects then they could be just as easily drawn and animated frontways as sideways. But i'm not a successfull programmer that produced such a fantastic program, so what the hey! Anway, congrats on a fantastic piece of software, i have yet to see anything else that comes close, even for 100 times the price! Well done Quango

05-20-2002, 11:56 PM	#19
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	It's not really worth the time to change the movement algorithm, since it will be thrown away when the 3D background is done anyway. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-28-2002, 12:56 AM	#20
Axle Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 59	Whoa! Now i cant wait for the 3D background even more. I always find myself looking at the top left of the tank and try to figure out if that is, as i think, some tentacled animone frozen in 2D. But hey, at least the fish do turn! Im sure it would have a similar effect if the fish swam off screen then entered again facing back in...but Jim doesnt appear to settle for cheap shortcuts. Still holding my breath for the update