3D Background Question

LIL-DAWGG · 02-26-2002, 02:46 PM

Jim, or other admins, what exactly do you mean by 3D background? Iam guessing it will move, but I havent been looking for news on it at the boards much because Iam a new member an just got here. If so(if it moves) will this slow down the frame rate any? Ive heard that you havent begun working on it yet though..so if you dont know, thats cool with me. THANKS

-BTW great aqaurium!

Socrates · 02-26-2002, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by LIL-DAWGG
Jim, or other admins, what exactly do you mean by 3D background? Iam guessing it will move, but I havent been looking for news on it at the boards much because Iam a new member an just got here. If so(if it moves) will this slow down the frame rate any? Ive heard that you havent begun working on it yet though..so if you dont know, thats cool with me. THANKS

-BTW great aqaurium!

Right now there are severl "billboard-like" sections of background. They are basically flat.

The 3d Background will be a fully articulated set of 3D objects. The tank will be equivalent to something like 18 inches deep giving more room for background, and for the fish to swim around each other. The background will be something like 16:9 or 16:10 ratio width and the camera will be able to pan left and right.

Jim has mentioned that some things back there might move or sway, but I am not sure if it is for sure at this point.

A sea anemone is planned to sit somewhere in the background with the percula being able to hide in it.

Caves and overhangs will be included in the 3D background objects so that eels and shrimp can move in and out of the "reef" more realisitcally.

It's going to be just plain awesome.

feldon34 · 02-26-2002, 03:24 PM

Current background:

Future background?

(ok, it won't be this detailed!)

LIL-DAWGG · 02-27-2002, 02:08 PM

thanks for the info!! And yea it does sound really awsome!

Joe · 02-27-2002, 03:11 PM

I am a total newbie to this forum and my wife and I love the screen saver.

Just a suggestion for added realism.....

How about adding a Coral Sea Fan that moves? or maybe a moray eel poking out?

Or maybe every once in while a tiny fish gets swallowed up by a larger fish (trigger fish maybe)?

Anyway....look forward to the 3d background whenever it happens. Great job!

Joe

Jim Sachs · 02-27-2002, 03:24 PM

Sea Fan - Yes, in the 3D background coming up next.
Eel - Yes, in the first Creature Pack.
Fish being eaten - No, this is SereneScreen.

SimonFearby · 03-03-2002, 05:21 AM

True 3d coral can be a nice feature but it is not what you end up looking at, Jim's fish are the real stars.

My under development DirectX 8.1 Fresh Water 3D FishTank has a fully interactive z azis where you can swim behind the fish and watch then go about their life but trying to add objects for the fish to swim around, through into is the hard part.

If anyone has any ideas on what level of interaction the fish should have with a 3d environment please let me know (if that is OK Jim/feldon23?)

freshwater-fishtank@fearby.com

Jim Sachs · 03-03-2002, 11:44 AM

There won't be any surprises about what people want to see -- as always, they want EVERTHING. They'll want the fish to nip at the plants, and the plants to sway in the current. They'll want shadows of fish on the plants, and shadows of plants on the floor. They'll want the bubbles to be deflected by the fish and anything else they hit.

Keep up the good work, and don't get depressed.

Tiny Turtle · 03-03-2002, 05:24 PM

, Jim.

At least you can count this day as a good one for putting a smile on my face.

/Happy Turtle

SimonFearby · 03-03-2002, 11:11 PM

Jim, I am a little like you I think. I am not a mathematician (I have to step through maths code a few dozen times), I was never taught programming and I don’t work well in a team but given a unique idea and the tools I can progress quite fast

As for the features like “shadows of fish on the plants, and shadows of plants on the floor” and “bubbles to deflect of fish” I would go for the simplest one to implement first (e.g bubbles deflecting off the fish).

But even then the simplest feature could have complexities that delay the implementation of that simple feature.

e.g DirectX could report the x,y,z position of the fish or bubbles to be not where it your can see the fish or bubble (e.g in Directx 8.1 the mesh of a fish may start anywhere from 0,0,0, axis e.g 0,0,100) due to the exporting for ther fish from your 3d mesh editing tool. So you have to add steps to insure the mesh is centered at 0,0,0 axis.

Or the bubble is deflected to right of the fishbut the fish then decides to move to the right and the bubble calculations have to be re done every again. After adding in heaps of these smaller requests the code becomes larger and the frame rate drops. So you then have to have a settings screen to enable and disable the extra AI to speed up the code.

I know in DirectX 8.1 there is a helper class to cast shadows onto a mesh (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...adowVolume.asp ) but I doubt it works for lumpy surfaces like meshes.

>Keep up the good work, and don't get depressed.

Thanks, your words of advice are almost like words from God him/her self

Jim Sachs · 03-04-2002, 12:36 AM

Yes, DX8 has a lot of advantages. Unfortunately, I'm still stuck with DX6.

SimonFearby · 03-04-2002, 01:34 AM

Dont think you are trapped by sticking with DirectX 6

I started to learn 3D programming around DirectX 7 and liked the seperate Retained (helper) Mode (in VB) and the full on IM mode but then DirectX 8 came out and I switched and had to re-write a lot of code just to get it to work (as Direct Draw and Direct3D merged to DirectGraphics).

Then DirectX 8a emerged with a patch for mesh problems so I converted and that took a while.

Then DirectX 8.1 was released with better samples and faster fps and you guessed it i converted.

Now I am trying to ignore the threat of DirectX 9 and I will stick with DirectX 8.1. If it aint broke dont fix it.

I would be so happy to get to the quality of your fish but I am still building the base because I stuffed around with DirectX 7, 8, 8a, and 8.1

( What kind of problems did you have when trying to convert to DirectX 8? )

feldon34 · 03-04-2002, 01:55 AM

The DirectX 8 screen saver libraries prevent the developer from knowing whether the visible buffer or the draw buffer have been flipped to the foreground.

As a result, if Jim puts up the Settings panel, there is a 50%-50% chance that it will be hidden BEHIND the fish. The same for the password box.

Microsoft refuses to do anything to fix the problem. Their solution/recommendation is to destroy the 3D world in order to bring up a dialog box, or to completely re-create each dialog box as made up of graphical objects. The things we take for granted like drop-down menus and checkboxes would have to be re-created line by line, pixel by pixel.

SimonFearby · 03-04-2002, 02:16 AM

I guess the fullscreen 3D scene has priority over the application and services hwnd's in > DX6?

IMHO

Could the aquarium be a maximized borderless window that will allow for a child (password or settings) form to be set over the main form? DirectX 8 runs just as fast in a window as full screen and it would mean a flicker free switch from screen saver to desktop mode as it was just a window?

I can see why Microsoft moved from a more integrated 23/3D or dedicated or 3D chioce?

Or f you have a few speare years, can the settings page be a transparent 3d or alpha blended menu made up of meshes or sprites and by checking what the user clicks by using the CD3DPick.ViewportPick(CD3DFrame,x,y) function? But then there is still the password form problem?

It is not easy..

Jim Sachs · 03-04-2002, 10:02 AM

Morgan's description of the problem is pretty accurate. The only thing I might add is that a large number of our customers still don't have DX8, and as long as the Aquarium is running fine for them, it seems cruel to require them the switch to DX8. I think that the Aquarium appeals to non-tech-savvy users probably more than any other program out there. You wouldn't believe some of the tech support issues we have to deal with. "How do I copy the file to a different folder?" "What do you mean double-click?" "How do you spell 'fish'?" (Think I'm kidding?) Many of these people would simply be incapable of installing DX8, with all the driver problems, BIOS updates, etc.

Simon - regarding using a maximized window: Many people run the Aquarium at a different resolution than their desktop, so I must open in Full-Screen Exclusive mode.

SimonFearby · 03-04-2002, 04:26 PM

Jim, I fully understand the tech support problems that you must get.

My daily job that gets in the way of my creative programming (just kidding boss) is a computer helpdesk officer for 13 educational institutes in Australia and we have more than our fair share of "so called expert users who cant double click etc".

Keep up the excellent work Jim

02-26-2002, 02:46 PM	#1
LIL-DAWGG Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 2	3D Background Question Jim, or other admins, what exactly do you mean by 3D background? Iam guessing it will move, but I havent been looking for news on it at the boards much because Iam a new member an just got here. If so(if it moves) will this slow down the frame rate any? Ive heard that you havent begun working on it yet though..so if you dont know, thats cool with me. THANKS -BTW great aqaurium!

02-26-2002, 03:07 PM	#2
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Re: 3D Background Question Originally posted by LIL-DAWGG Jim, or other admins, what exactly do you mean by 3D background? Iam guessing it will move, but I havent been looking for news on it at the boards much because Iam a new member an just got here. If so(if it moves) will this slow down the frame rate any? Ive heard that you havent begun working on it yet though..so if you dont know, thats cool with me. THANKS -BTW great aqaurium! Right now there are severl "billboard-like" sections of background. They are basically flat. The 3d Background will be a fully articulated set of 3D objects. The tank will be equivalent to something like 18 inches deep giving more room for background, and for the fish to swim around each other. The background will be something like 16:9 or 16:10 ratio width and the camera will be able to pan left and right. Jim has mentioned that some things back there might move or sway, but I am not sure if it is for sure at this point. A sea anemone is planned to sit somewhere in the background with the percula being able to hide in it. Caves and overhangs will be included in the 3D background objects so that eels and shrimp can move in and out of the "reef" more realisitcally. It's going to be just plain awesome. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

02-26-2002, 03:24 PM	#3
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Current background: Future background? (ok, it won't be this detailed!) "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-27-2002, 03:24 PM	#6
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	Sea Fan - Yes, in the 3D background coming up next. Eel - Yes, in the first Creature Pack. Fish being eaten - No, this is SereneScreen. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-03-2002, 11:44 AM	#8
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	There won't be any surprises about what people want to see -- as always, they want EVERTHING. They'll want the fish to nip at the plants, and the plants to sway in the current. They'll want shadows of fish on the plants, and shadows of plants on the floor. They'll want the bubbles to be deflected by the fish and anything else they hit. Keep up the good work, and don't get depressed. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-27-2002, 02:08 PM	#4
LIL-DAWGG Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 2	thanks for the info!! And yea it does sound really awsome!

02-27-2002, 03:11 PM	#5
Joe Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1	I am a total newbie to this forum and my wife and I love the screen saver. Just a suggestion for added realism..... How about adding a Coral Sea Fan that moves? or maybe a moray eel poking out? Or maybe every once in while a tiny fish gets swallowed up by a larger fish (trigger fish maybe)? Anyway....look forward to the 3d background whenever it happens. Great job! Joe

03-03-2002, 05:21 AM	#7
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	True 3d coral can be a nice feature but it is not what you end up looking at, Jim's fish are the real stars. My under development DirectX 8.1 Fresh Water 3D FishTank has a fully interactive z azis where you can swim behind the fish and watch then go about their life but trying to add objects for the fish to swim around, through into is the hard part. If anyone has any ideas on what level of interaction the fish should have with a 3d environment please let me know (if that is OK Jim/feldon23?) freshwater-fishtank@fearby.com

03-03-2002, 05:24 PM	#9
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	, Jim. At least you can count this day as a good one for putting a smile on my face. /Happy Turtle

03-03-2002, 11:11 PM	#10
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	Jim, I am a little like you I think. I am not a mathematician (I have to step through maths code a few dozen times), I was never taught programming and I don’t work well in a team but given a unique idea and the tools I can progress quite fast As for the features like “shadows of fish on the plants, and shadows of plants on the floor” and “bubbles to deflect of fish” I would go for the simplest one to implement first (e.g bubbles deflecting off the fish). But even then the simplest feature could have complexities that delay the implementation of that simple feature. e.g DirectX could report the x,y,z position of the fish or bubbles to be not where it your can see the fish or bubble (e.g in Directx 8.1 the mesh of a fish may start anywhere from 0,0,0, axis e.g 0,0,100) due to the exporting for ther fish from your 3d mesh editing tool. So you have to add steps to insure the mesh is centered at 0,0,0 axis. Or the bubble is deflected to right of the fishbut the fish then decides to move to the right and the bubble calculations have to be re done every again. After adding in heaps of these smaller requests the code becomes larger and the frame rate drops. So you then have to have a settings screen to enable and disable the extra AI to speed up the code. I know in DirectX 8.1 there is a helper class to cast shadows onto a mesh (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...adowVolume.asp ) but I doubt it works for lumpy surfaces like meshes. >Keep up the good work, and don't get depressed. Thanks, your words of advice are almost like words from God him/her self My 3d FishTank Screen Saver

03-04-2002, 12:36 AM	#11
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	Yes, DX8 has a lot of advantages. Unfortunately, I'm still stuck with DX6. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-04-2002, 01:34 AM	#12
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	Dont think you are trapped by sticking with DirectX 6 I started to learn 3D programming around DirectX 7 and liked the seperate Retained (helper) Mode (in VB) and the full on IM mode but then DirectX 8 came out and I switched and had to re-write a lot of code just to get it to work (as Direct Draw and Direct3D merged to DirectGraphics). Then DirectX 8a emerged with a patch for mesh problems so I converted and that took a while. Then DirectX 8.1 was released with better samples and faster fps and you guessed it i converted. Now I am trying to ignore the threat of DirectX 9 and I will stick with DirectX 8.1. If it aint broke dont fix it. I would be so happy to get to the quality of your fish but I am still building the base because I stuffed around with DirectX 7, 8, 8a, and 8.1 ( What kind of problems did you have when trying to convert to DirectX 8? ) My 3d FishTank Screen Saver

03-04-2002, 01:55 AM	#13
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	The DirectX 8 screen saver libraries prevent the developer from knowing whether the visible buffer or the draw buffer have been flipped to the foreground. As a result, if Jim puts up the Settings panel, there is a 50%-50% chance that it will be hidden BEHIND the fish. The same for the password box. Microsoft refuses to do anything to fix the problem. Their solution/recommendation is to destroy the 3D world in order to bring up a dialog box, or to completely re-create each dialog box as made up of graphical objects. The things we take for granted like drop-down menus and checkboxes would have to be re-created line by line, pixel by pixel. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-04-2002, 02:16 AM	#14
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	I guess the fullscreen 3D scene has priority over the application and services hwnd's in > DX6? IMHO Could the aquarium be a maximized borderless window that will allow for a child (password or settings) form to be set over the main form? DirectX 8 runs just as fast in a window as full screen and it would mean a flicker free switch from screen saver to desktop mode as it was just a window? I can see why Microsoft moved from a more integrated 23/3D or dedicated or 3D chioce? Or f you have a few speare years, can the settings page be a transparent 3d or alpha blended menu made up of meshes or sprites and by checking what the user clicks by using the CD3DPick.ViewportPick(CD3DFrame,x,y) function? But then there is still the password form problem? It is not easy.. My 3d FishTank Screen Saver

03-04-2002, 10:02 AM	#15
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	Morgan's description of the problem is pretty accurate. The only thing I might add is that a large number of our customers still don't have DX8, and as long as the Aquarium is running fine for them, it seems cruel to require them the switch to DX8. I think that the Aquarium appeals to non-tech-savvy users probably more than any other program out there. You wouldn't believe some of the tech support issues we have to deal with. "How do I copy the file to a different folder?" "What do you mean double-click?" "How do you spell 'fish'?" (Think I'm kidding?) Many of these people would simply be incapable of installing DX8, with all the driver problems, BIOS updates, etc. Simon - regarding using a maximized window: Many people run the Aquarium at a different resolution than their desktop, so I must open in Full-Screen Exclusive mode. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-04-2002, 04:26 PM	#16
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	Jim, I fully understand the tech support problems that you must get. My daily job that gets in the way of my creative programming (just kidding boss) is a computer helpdesk officer for 13 educational institutes in Australia and we have more than our fair share of "so called expert users who cant double click etc". Keep up the excellent work Jim My 3d FishTank Screen Saver