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Old 06-16-2010, 10:00 AM   #41
Dale
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Originally posted by bozpool:
I have been lurking here a long times, and keep seeing Dale start a thread and then ignited unnecessary debates.  
Take a look at the progress of this thread that I started. It was concluded by Jim with Post #6. It was ignited by feldon34 with Post #7. We're now over #40.

I accept the opinions that I have been very vocal in this forum. Please stop reading here, if you are not willing to consider my viewpoint. But I'm quite willing to discuss this publicly.

I have been a Moderator (now "chair") of a successful "forum" for about 20 years. At the end of May, that forum had 67 Conferences, 30703 Topics, 349433 Notes. So, it's not like I am inexperienced with forums.

That's why I asked for dom5885's opinion about the significant differences between the Dream Aquarium forum and this one. Perhaps my question was off-topic.

Feldon34 will tell you that I have never questioned his authority (in public or by PM), and have never failed to follow direction or guidance sent by the Moderators via PM. I seldom respond publicly to public comments, but I do read them.

Feldon34 said it very well in his recent statement (post #37) "I will not take action based on your posts in this thread". But I do "hear" you.

Regarding "fanaticism towards finding bugs and/or adding/changing features" (harris): I compare that to "goal of producing a product that meets the needs of customers (feldon34). If the Moderators wish to define a degree to which we should find bugs or make feature suggestions, then OK.

In my opinion, bug fixes are quick. Somebody finds a bug, Jim says whether it needs fixing or not, it gets fixed. Of course, others can weigh in on whether they think it's a bug or not.

Feature suggestions: Somebody makes a suggestion, perhaps there is discussion, Jim makes a Yes/No decision. Perhaps the feature is deferred to a later version. Or put in the "Maybe" category, which continues the discussion.

Originally posted by feldon34:
Jim pays the bills.  
OK, then Jim ultimately decides how this forum runs (or dies).

Originally posted by harris:
Feldon, you should have no regrets about how you have administered this website  
Of course not. Forum administration is a very tough job, and nobody who hasn't "been there" can really appreciate that. Forum "citizens" usually have no idea what goes on behind the scenes (via PM, etc.). And forums thrive or die for lots of reasons.

Rules: Forums have rules. https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...ead.php?t=1824. Administrators have absolute authority to enforce the rules, to not enforce the rules, to selectively enforce the rules, to change the rules, and to publicize the rules.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:07 AM   #42
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Everyone would get along a lot better if they followed my philosophy:

1. Only read the first two lines of any long post.
2. Never read a post which has a clipped-out quote from someone else. They almost never end well.

Thanks to everyone who helped make MA3.1 a user-friendly experience. All of the infuriating nit-picking was actually an essential part of the process. Well, maybe not ALL of it, but most.
Jim Sachs
Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:30 AM   #43
Dale
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Thanks, Jim. And I didn't previously know your Rule #2. I'll try to use that new knowledge wisely.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:35 PM   #44
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Originally posted by Jim Sachs:
1. Only read the first two lines of any long post.
2. Never read a post which has a clipped-out quote from someone else. They almost never end well.  
This explains a lot. I wish I'd known this sooner.
Originally posted by feldon34:
Jim pays the bills.
Originally posted by Dale:
OK, then Jim ultimately decides how this forum runs (or dies).  
 
Everyone makes choices.
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell
"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:54 PM   #45
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Originally posted by harris:
I don't have an answer to this situation except hopefully Dale and JohnWho will relax, smell the roses, relish in their accomplishments, and give others a chance to get more involved.  
Sorry, but this part makes me

Neither Dale nor I nor Feldon nor anyone else kept anyone from being involved. (That I know of, anyway.)

In fact, in the one thread I started regarding beta testing, I somewhat asked that folks downloading the various betas give feedback.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:56 PM   #46
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Feldon,

If you haven't read my post #40, please do. In post #41 Dale has selectively snipped and used partial quotes of mine that has possibly changed their original meaning depending on who is doing the reading.

I'm not trying to inflame the debate/situation, but I dislike someone using partial quotes that can lead to a misunderstanding of the original meaning, whether done intentionally or not.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:02 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Jim Sachs:
Thanks to everyone who helped make MA3.1 a user-friendly experience. All of the infuriating nit-picking was actually an essential part of the process. Well, maybe not ALL of it, but most.  

As I've said, I'm both honored and priveleged to have been part of it.

Like many others on this board, I have prior "life experiences". At one time, I was the "tech writer" for the Help Screens on a software package. "Infuriating nit-picking" is part of the process and often not an enjoyable part at that. We had an advantage since we were talking directly to you and were able to get relatively timely feedback on whether we should pursue a concept or idea or shelve it for another time or even "fuggetaboutit".

Thank you for letting us feel that we helped.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:14 PM   #48
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Originally posted by JohnWho:
Sorry, but this part makes me

Neither Dale nor I nor Feldon nor anyone else kept anyone from being involved. (That I know of, anyway.)

In fact, in the one thread I started regarding beta testing, I somewhat asked that folks downloading the various betas give feedback.  
JohnWho, my comments in post #40 were in direct response to feldon's question. My interpretation that you describe is not based solely on personal thoughts, but that of comments made by other posters as well. Don't believe me, try reading other posters comments without blinders on!

Enough of this tit-for-tat banter, I've made my last post about the subject. If you and Dale haven't understood the negative hints and down-right tantrums directed at you two from several other members, then nothing will remove the blinders!
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:22 PM   #49
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Originally posted by JohnWho:
I'm going to be brutally honest here -  
I too can be brutally honest. - I have a quote for you and Dale....

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:24 PM   #50
Dale
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Originally posted by harris:
Feldon,

If you haven't read my post #40, please do. In post #41 Dale has selectively snipped and used partial quotes of mine that has possibly changed their original meaning depending on who is doing the reading.

I'm not trying to inflame the debate/situation, but I dislike someone using partial quotes that can lead to a misunderstanding of the original meaning, whether done intentionally or not.  
It was not my intent to distort anything with those partial quotes. If you'll let me know (publicly or PM) what was objectionable, I'll try to fix it.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:30 PM   #51
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A comment of support

Feldon, I have supported your work and think you have done a fine job. I agree with harris in saying that Dale and JohnWho have both been a huge distarction recently. This constant bickering is real annoying and has taken away the joy of reading in this forum and learning from it. I also look at it to see when the next updates might be comming around but i am having second thoughts of even doing that. Please stop and let the rest of us enjoy what SereneScreen and Jim are doing.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:36 PM   #52
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OK, Dale - I can take a hint.

I'll stop bickering with you if you stop bickering with me!


I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:41 PM   #53
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I propose that we take up a collection to raise $1 million to give to Dale if he resists the temptation to respond.
Jim Sachs
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:58 PM   #54
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:-)
As Jim seems to appreciate some of Dale's and JohnWho's efforts then thanks to them for all the help (some documentation would be a nice change). If it gets over-the-top sometimes I can live with it, although I see that's not a universal view.
John
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:02 PM   #55
Dale
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Originally posted by cjmaddy:
I too can be brutally honest. - I have a quote for you and Dale....

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  
Cool.

First: I certainly comprehend that several forum participants have expressed opinions disapproving of my behavior. I respect your right to express those opinions (and spent 20 years defending that right).

Now, I have a question for the denizens of this forum. And I really am asking for an answer (not trolling), because although I've been a member here for 5 years, I have never seen it discussed. And I believe it pertains to where this topic has unfortunately gone.

Background: This question comes because of my experiences in many other forums, that have differing rules, standards, mores, and behavioral norms. Understanding of those things, by all forum participants, is very helpful for the forum experience.

None of the things below should be considered as criticism of any person, or criticism of the rules, norms, etc.

Preface: Clearly, Administrators and Moderators send PMs that must be taken seriously, and make critical decisions (like locking threads) that are public. Also, from time to time, Administrators and Moderators participate in public discussions of the rules. Also, because of the nature of this forum, when Jim Sachs speaks in public, it's the law.

Further: Administrators and Moderators often participate in all forum discussions.

Question: (Other than in a discussion of rules) In a public forum discussion, when an Administrator or Moderator expresses an opinion, should that opinion be given any more weight than the opinion of any other participant?

Reminder: This is not intended to be a troll. I am asking for thoughtful answers (and PM will be OK, if that's your choice).
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:06 PM   #56
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Since you asked - Yes if it's on forum behaviour or policy, Maybe Yes on the Aquarium due to long experience, not so much on more general topics.

I don't think it was a good question to ask though.

Now 3.1 is out how about we declare tomorrow (the 17th, since people East of me are there already) "Let's all be nice to each other day"? No negative posts allowed!
:-)
John
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:06 PM   #57
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Originally posted by jleslie:
:-)
As Jim seems to appreciate some of Dale's and JohnWho's efforts then thanks to them for all the help (some documentation would be a nice change). If it gets over-the-top sometimes I can live with it, although I see that's not a universal view.
John  
Thank you, John.

We "Johns" got to stick together.

I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:12 PM   #58
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@ Dale -

That's a reasonable question, but probably it won't be taken reasonably by many (other than jleslie, above).

I, too, have been both an Admin and Moderator on other boards. You describe one of the major dilemmas I had when I was first asked to help moderate a board - how does one separate their "staff" persona from their "member" persona when posting? It is not a simple answer nor is it something than I've seen handled well (including my own attempts on other boards, I might add).

Perhaps this would be better served if we discussed it in a more appropriate section of the board, however?

Or not.

Just a suggestion.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:24 PM   #59
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jleslie: thanks for #23, #54, and #56.

JohnWho: I did consider where the question should be posted - however I'm not really that familiar with the rest of the Board, so I couldn't decide on a better place. But:

If the question (and answer) would be appropriate for the entire Board, then we (or the Moderators) can move it to Coffee House or somewhere else.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #60
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Originally posted by Jim Sachs:
I propose that we take up a collection to raise $1 million to give to Dale if he resists the temptation to respond.  
Dang!

I'll stop posting here for only half that!

I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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