A long time ago.... 3D background

feldon34 · 12-17-2002, 11:58 AM

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...

We had a topic about whether Jim would continue to support now-ancient video cards like ATI Rage/Rage Pro/All-In-Wonder cards when he introduced the 3D background.

You've mentioned feather dusters, a living anemone, clams that open and close, a coral shrimp, eels, and a panning/scrolling background.

Jim, I was wondering if, since the march towards faster video cards continues and a sufficient video card to run even the most elaborate 3D background you could realize runs $40, how far will you go to maintain compatibility with older systems/cards?

Are you still holding that any fish you create/introduce/approve must look reasonably good (with minimal 'buzz') at 640x480 and 800x600 resolutions?

How do the tools Prolific has written for you affect this?

Jim Sachs · 12-17-2002, 12:39 PM

When I created the original background, 1024x768 was nearly unheard of for a baseline resolution. Virtually every other 3D program used a blurry 640x480 background.

You are right -- time marches on and what was considered a high-end card 2 years ago is now almost universal. While I will still try to maintain a low common denominator, some of the lowest-end cards (like an 8-meg Rage Pro) may drop off the bottom of the accaeptable list.

All the original artwork I'm now doing is geared for a resolution of 1600x1200. Whether or not that becomes the baseline resolution for the Freshwater Aquarium or the next version of the Saltwater tank remains to be seen, but at least the artwork will have the detail to support it.

It's conceivable that there would be both low-end and high-end versions, with the hi-res version being about 4 times the filesize of the normal one. It might seem that everyone would just go straight for that one, but there are serious drawbacks to running a high-res program on a machine limited to 1024x768. If you look at normal-sized fish at that res, the fish may be about 64 pixels long. If a 256x256 texture is mapped onto that fish instead of a 64x64 texture, not only are 15/16 of the pixels wasted, but they cause all kinds of "sparkling" aliasing problems. Only at very high resolutions is there any real advantage.

Maintaining the code base for high- and low-res versions would increase the workload significantly for Prolific. Amazingly, there are already over 25 different versions of the current Aquarium which have to be maintained.

The development tools which Prolific has been creating can really come in handy when creating fish or backgrounds. For example, I can have the Aquarium running in a window, and Lightwave filling up the rest of the screen. When I modify and save a fish (or other object) from Lightwave, it instantly shows up in the Aquarium. This greatly streamlines the dev process.

drfish · 12-17-2002, 01:36 PM

All the original artwork I'm now doing is geared for a resolution of 1600x1200.

Sweet! You just made my day Jim.

I was going to post something more insightful, but I think I'll just leave it at that.

Jav400 · 12-17-2002, 02:16 PM

Jim,

With all the things that you have planned to go along with the changeover, you should be well at the front of the pack again. I sure wish I could time warp ahead and see what it will all look like with both CP's available and running; featherduster's, shrimp's, clam's, and so on all in there together; and the double wide on top of all that

IXNAY · 12-17-2002, 03:10 PM

Sounds good, a low-system-requirements version would be great.

Remember a screensaver runs parallel to many other programs wich still work in the background, I hate screensavers wich take 30 seconds or longer to load.
The perfect screensaver in this case is ambient flocks, only 7kb big and it makes so cool colourfull pictures, just great.

Tiny Turtle · 12-17-2002, 03:45 PM

Ix,
I think in this case it was more of a question of a version with higher requirements than the current one...

/Tiny Opposite

Jav400 · 12-17-2002, 04:01 PM

Jim has always stuck to his guns about wanting the most realistic aquarium available. Since the time he started this project, video cards and systems have improved to the point that some of the things in the beginning that would have taken a high $$$ card at that time, now will run on a $50 card. So there are many things that were borderline for inclusion at the first, that we have a much better chance of seeing now, and Jim can shoot for even more realism than he was probably going to be able to in the first place. A case in point is that now he may be able to shoot for 1600x1200 which will look absolutely awesome.

Tiny Turtle · 12-17-2002, 04:15 PM

Wasn't this the thought behind the original time schedule (back in early 2001)? Making the Aquarium, then the Butterfly Garden and Terrarium before taking on the challenge of making the Aviary which would consume the most performance.
/Tiny Schedule

Jim Sachs · 12-17-2002, 05:32 PM

I hadn't really thought much about performance when deciding what order to create the programs, just what I guessed would be the difficulty level. Now I'm thinking that the terrarium might be the hardest, because of the waterfall and all the different types of critters.

Jav400 · 12-17-2002, 08:22 PM

At last check, Jim is at this point hoping to follow a schedule something along these lines : Freshwater tank, 3D background for saltwater tank, Creature-Pak 1 for saltwater, Butterfly habitat, 3d background for freshwater, Creature-Pak for freshwater, Creature-Pak 2 for saltwater, Terrarium, Aviary.

Disclaimer: Of course any of these things could be hindered or helped by numerous factors along the way and result in a somewhat rearranged game plan.

12-17-2002, 11:58 AM	#1
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	A long time ago.... 3D background A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away... We had a topic about whether Jim would continue to support now-ancient video cards like ATI Rage/Rage Pro/All-In-Wonder cards when he introduced the 3D background. You've mentioned feather dusters, a living anemone, clams that open and close, a coral shrimp, eels, and a panning/scrolling background. Jim, I was wondering if, since the march towards faster video cards continues and a sufficient video card to run even the most elaborate 3D background you could realize runs $40, how far will you go to maintain compatibility with older systems/cards? Are you still holding that any fish you create/introduce/approve must look reasonably good (with minimal 'buzz') at 640x480 and 800x600 resolutions? How do the tools Prolific has written for you affect this? "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 12-17-2002 at 12:02 PM.

12-17-2002, 12:39 PM	#2
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	When I created the original background, 1024x768 was nearly unheard of for a baseline resolution. Virtually every other 3D program used a blurry 640x480 background. You are right -- time marches on and what was considered a high-end card 2 years ago is now almost universal. While I will still try to maintain a low common denominator, some of the lowest-end cards (like an 8-meg Rage Pro) may drop off the bottom of the accaeptable list. All the original artwork I'm now doing is geared for a resolution of 1600x1200. Whether or not that becomes the baseline resolution for the Freshwater Aquarium or the next version of the Saltwater tank remains to be seen, but at least the artwork will have the detail to support it. It's conceivable that there would be both low-end and high-end versions, with the hi-res version being about 4 times the filesize of the normal one. It might seem that everyone would just go straight for that one, but there are serious drawbacks to running a high-res program on a machine limited to 1024x768. If you look at normal-sized fish at that res, the fish may be about 64 pixels long. If a 256x256 texture is mapped onto that fish instead of a 64x64 texture, not only are 15/16 of the pixels wasted, but they cause all kinds of "sparkling" aliasing problems. Only at very high resolutions is there any real advantage. Maintaining the code base for high- and low-res versions would increase the workload significantly for Prolific. Amazingly, there are already over 25 different versions of the current Aquarium which have to be maintained. The development tools which Prolific has been creating can really come in handy when creating fish or backgrounds. For example, I can have the Aquarium running in a window, and Lightwave filling up the rest of the screen. When I modify and save a fish (or other object) from Lightwave, it instantly shows up in the Aquarium. This greatly streamlines the dev process. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-17-2002, 01:36 PM	#3
drfish the Doc Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Zeeland, MI Posts: 5,353	All the original artwork I'm now doing is geared for a resolution of 1600x1200. Sweet! You just made my day Jim. I was going to post something more insightful, but I think I'll just leave it at that. I don't watch commercials.

12-17-2002, 02:16 PM	#4
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Jim, With all the things that you have planned to go along with the changeover, you should be well at the front of the pack again. I sure wish I could time warp ahead and see what it will all look like with both CP's available and running; featherduster's, shrimp's, clam's, and so on all in there together; and the double wide on top of all that Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

12-17-2002, 03:10 PM	#5
IXNAY Green Frog Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 840	Sounds good, a low-system-requirements version would be great. Remember a screensaver runs parallel to many other programs wich still work in the background, I hate screensavers wich take 30 seconds or longer to load. The perfect screensaver in this case is ambient flocks, only 7kb big and it makes so cool colourfull pictures, just great. IXNAY dreaming of the serene terrarium - My Private Homepage -

12-17-2002, 03:45 PM	#6
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Ix, I think in this case it was more of a question of a version with higher requirements than the current one... /Tiny Opposite Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

12-17-2002, 04:01 PM	#7
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Jim has always stuck to his guns about wanting the most realistic aquarium available. Since the time he started this project, video cards and systems have improved to the point that some of the things in the beginning that would have taken a high $$$ card at that time, now will run on a $50 card. So there are many things that were borderline for inclusion at the first, that we have a much better chance of seeing now, and Jim can shoot for even more realism than he was probably going to be able to in the first place. A case in point is that now he may be able to shoot for 1600x1200 which will look absolutely awesome. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

12-17-2002, 04:15 PM	#8
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Wasn't this the thought behind the original time schedule (back in early 2001)? Making the Aquarium, then the Butterfly Garden and Terrarium before taking on the challenge of making the Aviary which would consume the most performance. /Tiny Schedule Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

12-17-2002, 05:32 PM	#9
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,775	I hadn't really thought much about performance when deciding what order to create the programs, just what I guessed would be the difficulty level. Now I'm thinking that the terrarium might be the hardest, because of the waterfall and all the different types of critters. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-17-2002, 08:22 PM	#10
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	At last check, Jim is at this point hoping to follow a schedule something along these lines : Freshwater tank, 3D background for saltwater tank, Creature-Pak 1 for saltwater, Butterfly habitat, 3d background for freshwater, Creature-Pak for freshwater, Creature-Pak 2 for saltwater, Terrarium, Aviary. Disclaimer: Of course any of these things could be hindered or helped by numerous factors along the way and result in a somewhat rearranged game plan. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection Last edited by Jav400; 12-17-2002 at 08:24 PM.