Marine Aquarium 3 Rumors and Speculation - Page 69

johnblommers · 02-29-2008, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

... I can't really picture Microsoft getting behind the Intel Mac project enough to help them with DirectX drivers.

Which is why you don't use OpenGL in the first place?

Tiny Turtle · 02-29-2008, 02:44 PM

Good thinking, Blommers. Jim learning a new API will surely speed up MA development...

feldon34 · 02-29-2008, 03:47 PM

Priceless.

johnblommers · 02-29-2008, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

Good thinking, Blommers. Jim learning a new API will surely speed up MA development...

Our happy bantering back and forth on this board is not helping Jim's productivity much either, though hopefully it provides a measure of badly needed entertainment

During my formative years I was taught that open standards are preferable to closed proprietary ones. SNA vs TCP/IP. Firefox vs IE. Linux vs Windows. OpenGL vs DirectX. Once on a proprietary path the cost of a transition back to a standard path is high.

Had MA been written in OpenGL in the first place, it would be so much easier to port it to Linux and MacOS X and reach a broader audience. But Jim has already shared his history with Amiga and I respect his developer's sense.

Fortunately Jim O'Connor's technical prowess will overcome the 3D API obstacle. We'll have our Mac OS X version of MA3 one day, TT!

schneb · 02-29-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by johnblommers:

During my formative years I was taught that open standards are preferable to closed proprietary ones.

Even in my twilight years.

That is why I still only use MP3 for audio.

Jim Sachs · 02-29-2008, 08:26 PM

There are lots of reasons I use Direct3D as opposed to OpenGL. If you look at the chart on this page: http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/d3d-vs-opengl.html, you'll see an awful lot of "No's" in the OpenGL column where thare are "Yesses" in the DX8 column. But the real answer is that I speak Direct3D and not OpenGL. If I was a writer who had written a best-seller in English, would it be logical for me to abandon the language and try to write the next one in French, if I don't currently speak that language?

Not that I'm really all that thrilled about Direct3D. It's like the old saying about Democracy -- it's the worst possible form of govenment, except for all the rest.

feldon34 · 02-29-2008, 09:29 PM

Had the Aquarium been written in OpenGL, it would run fine on Mac and Linux, but it would not have run particularly well on PCs, at least in the first few years that the Aquarium was out. OpenGL support on Windows was poor at best.

I do support public standards and love Firefox. But it does not bother me that DirectX is developed by a corporation rather than an open source agency. It does Microsoft no good to keep the contents of DirectX a secret, as it is a public toolkit intended for developers.

It seems that website is rather out-of-date as most of the "No" items are now supported in OpenGL with extensions (which most video cards now support).

Azdec · 03-01-2008, 03:25 PM

When will we get the new marine aquarium? I had a heart attack in July 07 and I survived. I hope I live long enough to see the completion of Marine Aquarium 3.0. I think Marine Aquarium was the first software download that I attempted to purchase. I think Jim Sachs himself was the person helping me via email. The purchase was not processing correctly and he finally emailed me and said that I had been trying too hard for too long to give my money to purchase the original Marine Aquarium and he sent me a keycode.

I was able to successfully purchase newer version(s) when the time to update arrived.

As with all those who wait...I am really looking forward to version 3.0.

Jim Sachs · 03-01-2008, 04:02 PM

It shouldn't be too much longer. The Alpha Testers are picking apart a preliminary version now, finding stuff that's very hard to fix. The only major tasks left before Beta release are the user interface, collision detection, and getting it to switch between windowed and fullscreen modes.

My current plan is to get the program into a usable form, but still using the old fish models, and without background animation. Then the registered users should be able to participate in the Beta-test process, using their MA2.6 Key Codes. That way, they could all give inputs and watch as I bring the background to life, one object at a time.

im_canadian · 03-01-2008, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

It shouldn't be too much longer. The Alpha Testers are picking apart a preliminary version now, finding stuff that's very hard to fix. The only major tasks left before Beta release are the user interface, collision detection, and getting it to switch between windowed and fullscreen modes.

My current plan is to get the program into a usable form, but still using the old fish models, and without background animation. Then the registered users should be able to participate in the Beta-test process, using their MA2.6 Key Codes. That way, they could all give inputs and watch as I bring the background to life, one object at a time.

Do you mean not hard to fix? And so 2.6 owners will be able to participate in the Beta? That's awesome!

Jim Sachs · 03-01-2008, 05:03 PM

I mean EXTREMELY hard to fix. The most difficult type of bug, because it has to do with timing, which is different on every computer.

On MA3, the left and right-arrow keys are used to scroll the scene back and forth. It should scroll smoothly, but some machines get rather jerky. It depends completely on what other programs, TSAs, and viruses are stealing clock cycles away from the Aquarium. No matter what I try, half the testers say "There - it's smooth, don't change a thing!", while the other half say "It was smooth before, but now it's jerky. Change it back!". Since it's always smooth on my machines, I'm working in the blind.

debavocet · 03-02-2008, 02:40 PM

It seems that website is rather out-of-date as most of the "No" items are now supported in OpenGL with extensions (which most video cards now support).[/quote]

Does that mean there's hope for us Mac owners? Nothing will ever pry me away from my Mac to buy a PC. Can you find one or two Mac tech experts to work with OpenGL, and free Jim for the creative work?
Also, would a Mac version of MA 3 be workable with OS 10.2.8? My Mac is several years old and it's a little late to invest in Jaguar, Panther, Leopard, etc. But if not, that's OK, I'm willing to wait for my next computer.
By the way, my current MA 2.6 has worked great on my Mac.

johnblommers · 03-02-2008, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by debavocet:

...Can you find one or two Mac tech experts to work with OpenGL, and free Jim for the creative work?

Jim Sachs has Jim O'Connor do the conversion to Mac OS X and OpenGL so that is already covered. There is a cool free Mac utility called GLview that lets you test your video card performance and compliance with all the standards from OpenGL 1.1 to 2.1.

Jim Sachs · 03-02-2008, 03:22 PM

As always, Jim O'Connor is poised to start the Mac conversion as soon as I'm "done" with the regular version.

debavocet · 03-02-2008, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by johnblommers:

There is a cool free Mac utility called GLview that lets you test your video card performance and compliance with all the standards from OpenGL 1.1 to 2.1.

Thanks - I'll give it a try.

Pyros9 · 03-02-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

My current plan is to get the program into a usable form, but still using the old fish models, and without background animation. Then the registered users should be able to participate in the Beta-test process, using their MA2.6 Key Codes. That way, they could all give inputs and watch as I bring the background to life, one object at a time.

Can't wait to do some beta testing again Jim! Sounds Fabulous!

F34R · 03-02-2008, 08:16 PM

ahhh beta testing.. music to my ears.

Bubbadude · 03-04-2008, 01:20 PM

Hello to the board, I haven't posted before but I've been with Jim since verision 99, seem like forever. I come by and read whats going on from time to time, I must say I'm really getting excited about MA3, and can't wait to see it. Love reading the board to keep up to date. Hope Jim has good luck solving the bugs. I'll try to post more often.

Jav400 · 03-04-2008, 01:23 PM

Welcome back and join in anytime, glad to have you taking a more active part.

ManagerJosh · 03-04-2008, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Bubbadude:

Hello to the board, I haven't posted before but I've been with Jim since verision 99, seem like forever. I come by and read whats going on from time to time, I must say I'm really getting excited about MA3, and can't wait to see it. Love reading the board to keep up to date. Hope Jim has good luck solving the bugs. I'll try to post more often.

Wow. You must be one of the oldies like me who still rememeber Marine Aquarium 0.3.

02-29-2008, 02:10 PM	#1361
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: ... I can't really picture Microsoft getting behind the Intel Mac project enough to help them with DirectX drivers. Which is why you don't use OpenGL in the first place? Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

02-29-2008, 02:44 PM	#1362
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Good thinking, Blommers. Jim learning a new API will surely speed up MA development... Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

02-29-2008, 03:47 PM	#1363
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Priceless. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-29-2008, 04:39 PM	#1364
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle: Good thinking, Blommers. Jim learning a new API will surely speed up MA development... Our happy bantering back and forth on this board is not helping Jim's productivity much either, though hopefully it provides a measure of badly needed entertainment During my formative years I was taught that open standards are preferable to closed proprietary ones. SNA vs TCP/IP. Firefox vs IE. Linux vs Windows. OpenGL vs DirectX. Once on a proprietary path the cost of a transition back to a standard path is high. Had MA been written in OpenGL in the first place, it would be so much easier to port it to Linux and MacOS X and reach a broader audience. But Jim has already shared his history with Amiga and I respect his developer's sense. Fortunately Jim O'Connor's technical prowess will overcome the 3D API obstacle. We'll have our Mac OS X version of MA3 one day, TT! Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

02-29-2008, 08:26 PM	#1366
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	There are lots of reasons I use Direct3D as opposed to OpenGL. If you look at the chart on this page: http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/d3d-vs-opengl.html, you'll see an awful lot of "No's" in the OpenGL column where thare are "Yesses" in the DX8 column. But the real answer is that I speak Direct3D and not OpenGL. If I was a writer who had written a best-seller in English, would it be logical for me to abandon the language and try to write the next one in French, if I don't currently speak that language? Not that I'm really all that thrilled about Direct3D. It's like the old saying about Democracy -- it's the worst possible form of govenment, except for all the rest. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-29-2008, 04:51 PM	#1365
schneb Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Redlands, CA Posts: 51	Originally posted by johnblommers: During my formative years I was taught that open standards are preferable to closed proprietary ones. Even in my twilight years. That is why I still only use MP3 for audio.

02-29-2008, 09:29 PM	#1367
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,947	Had the Aquarium been written in OpenGL, it would run fine on Mac and Linux, but it would not have run particularly well on PCs, at least in the first few years that the Aquarium was out. OpenGL support on Windows was poor at best. I do support public standards and love Firefox. But it does not bother me that DirectX is developed by a corporation rather than an open source agency. It does Microsoft no good to keep the contents of DirectX a secret, as it is a public toolkit intended for developers. It seems that website is rather out-of-date as most of the "No" items are now supported in OpenGL with extensions (which most video cards now support). "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-01-2008, 03:25 PM	#1368
Azdec Registered Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Doylestown, PA Posts: 9	So When is it ready? When will we get the new marine aquarium? I had a heart attack in July 07 and I survived. I hope I live long enough to see the completion of Marine Aquarium 3.0. I think Marine Aquarium was the first software download that I attempted to purchase. I think Jim Sachs himself was the person helping me via email. The purchase was not processing correctly and he finally emailed me and said that I had been trying too hard for too long to give my money to purchase the original Marine Aquarium and he sent me a keycode. I was able to successfully purchase newer version(s) when the time to update arrived. As with all those who wait...I am really looking forward to version 3.0.

03-01-2008, 04:02 PM	#1369
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	It shouldn't be too much longer. The Alpha Testers are picking apart a preliminary version now, finding stuff that's very hard to fix. The only major tasks left before Beta release are the user interface, collision detection, and getting it to switch between windowed and fullscreen modes. My current plan is to get the program into a usable form, but still using the old fish models, and without background animation. Then the registered users should be able to participate in the Beta-test process, using their MA2.6 Key Codes. That way, they could all give inputs and watch as I bring the background to life, one object at a time. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-01-2008, 04:26 PM	#1370
im_canadian Registered Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 8	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: It shouldn't be too much longer. The Alpha Testers are picking apart a preliminary version now, finding stuff that's very hard to fix. The only major tasks left before Beta release are the user interface, collision detection, and getting it to switch between windowed and fullscreen modes. My current plan is to get the program into a usable form, but still using the old fish models, and without background animation. Then the registered users should be able to participate in the Beta-test process, using their MA2.6 Key Codes. That way, they could all give inputs and watch as I bring the background to life, one object at a time. Do you mean not hard to fix? And so 2.6 owners will be able to participate in the Beta? That's awesome!

03-01-2008, 05:03 PM	#1371
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	I mean EXTREMELY hard to fix. The most difficult type of bug, because it has to do with timing, which is different on every computer. On MA3, the left and right-arrow keys are used to scroll the scene back and forth. It should scroll smoothly, but some machines get rather jerky. It depends completely on what other programs, TSAs, and viruses are stealing clock cycles away from the Aquarium. No matter what I try, half the testers say "There - it's smooth, don't change a thing!", while the other half say "It was smooth before, but now it's jerky. Change it back!". Since it's always smooth on my machines, I'm working in the blind. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-02-2008, 02:40 PM	#1372
debavocet Welcome to the Quack House! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	It seems that website is rather out-of-date as most of the "No" items are now supported in OpenGL with extensions (which most video cards now support).[/quote] Does that mean there's hope for us Mac owners? Nothing will ever pry me away from my Mac to buy a PC. Can you find one or two Mac tech experts to work with OpenGL, and free Jim for the creative work? Also, would a Mac version of MA 3 be workable with OS 10.2.8? My Mac is several years old and it's a little late to invest in Jaguar, Panther, Leopard, etc. But if not, that's OK, I'm willing to wait for my next computer. By the way, my current MA 2.6 has worked great on my Mac. Quack - debavocet http://www.stratacafe.com/member.asp?ID=8929&page=1

03-02-2008, 03:22 PM	#1374
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	As always, Jim O'Connor is poised to start the Mac conversion as soon as I'm "done" with the regular version. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-02-2008, 03:52 PM	#1375
debavocet Welcome to the Quack House! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Originally posted by johnblommers: There is a cool free Mac utility called GLview that lets you test your video card performance and compliance with all the standards from OpenGL 1.1 to 2.1. Thanks - I'll give it a try. Quack - debavocet http://www.stratacafe.com/member.asp?ID=8929&page=1

03-02-2008, 06:39 PM	#1376
Pyros9 Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 49	Fantastic! Originally posted by Jim Sachs: My current plan is to get the program into a usable form, but still using the old fish models, and without background animation. Then the registered users should be able to participate in the Beta-test process, using their MA2.6 Key Codes. That way, they could all give inputs and watch as I bring the background to life, one object at a time. Can't wait to do some beta testing again Jim! Sounds Fabulous! Doug................(Pyros9) www.faddis.net My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dogs think I am.

03-02-2008, 08:16 PM	#1377
F34R Registered Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 53	ahhh beta testing.. music to my ears.

03-04-2008, 01:20 PM	#1378
Bubbadude Registered Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8	Hello to the board, I haven't posted before but I've been with Jim since verision 99, seem like forever. I come by and read whats going on from time to time, I must say I'm really getting excited about MA3, and can't wait to see it. Love reading the board to keep up to date. Hope Jim has good luck solving the bugs. I'll try to post more often.

03-04-2008, 01:23 PM	#1379
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Welcome back and join in anytime, glad to have you taking a more active part. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

03-04-2008, 04:52 PM	#1380
ManagerJosh Registered Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	Originally posted by Bubbadude: Hello to the board, I haven't posted before but I've been with Jim since verision 99, seem like forever. I come by and read whats going on from time to time, I must say I'm really getting excited about MA3, and can't wait to see it. Love reading the board to keep up to date. Hope Jim has good luck solving the bugs. I'll try to post more often. Wow. You must be one of the oldies like me who still rememeber Marine Aquarium 0.3.