Driver Issue Crash when "F" is pressed a second time

Dale · 10-11-2008, 08:06 PM

System is WXP SP3, Video card is Radeon X300.
MA3 is installed, placed in /windows/system32. set as default screensaver.

Right-click on desktop, choose properties, screen saver, preview. [Same thing happens when running directly by clicking on the file, by the way]
MA3 starts normally, shows about 64 fps, 1360x768x32, window size 1360x768.

Press F to go to widescreen mode. Shows about 8 fps (which seems strange, but not the problem). Window size 648x507

Without doing anything else, press F again. "...problem and needs to close..." (the usual unhelpful "do I want to send to Microsoft". I could capture the little bit of data in the report, if that would be helpful.

This is repeatable on my system. Didn't (yet) try it on a different computer.

Dale · 10-11-2008, 09:00 PM

The crash does NOT occur on a fairly-similar system. WXP SP3, etc.
The screen shows that the video card is "ATI Radeon X300/X550/X1050 Series".
1024x768x32
Startup window size is 1024x768, 110 fps
Press "F", window size is 648x507, 110 fps
Press "F" again, it properly goes back to 1024x768

Footnote: I didn't notice this before, but: when in Windowed mode (at least accessed via preview), moving the mouse does not exit the screensaver. Pressing Esc does exit. And in fullscreen mode, moving the mouse DOES exit the screensaver.

Jim Sachs · 10-11-2008, 09:43 PM

Are those cards both using the same drivers?

When you are in window mode on the troublesome computer, do the Statistics still say "HAL"?

Dale · 10-11-2008, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Are those cards both using the same drivers?

No. I can provide ATI version numbers, if that would be helpful. As I recall, the "troublesome computer" is back-versioned on ATI drivers, because when I go to a newer driver version I have problems with another 3rd-party application.

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

When you are in window mode on the troublesome computer, do the Statistics still say "HAL"?

Yes. "HAL (pure hw vp): RADEON X300 Series" In both window mode and fullscreen.

Not that it's helpful - but it "dies" in kernel32.dll

You're probably right about the driver version - or perhaps something unique with this particular computer.

Jim Sachs · 10-11-2008, 11:05 PM

Sorry, I'm out of ideas on this one.

Dale · 10-12-2008, 07:25 PM

Doesn't crash on 3 other computers with different cards/drivers. So, forget it.

"Just don't press F twice on that computer...."

Tiny Turtle · 10-13-2008, 04:20 AM

Nah,
The next guy who comes across that bug might not like if the program he has bought doesn't work properly.

Dale · 10-13-2008, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

Nah,
The next guy who comes across that bug might not like if the program he has bought doesn't work properly.

I suspect it would be fixed if I updated this computer to the latest video drivers. The last time I did that, another 3rd party application "broke".

Perhaps I'll try again. Otherwise - "upgrade to the latest drivers" would be the right advice.

If this were a major function problem, I'd be worried. But how many people are going to routinely press "F" twice?

Tiny Turtle · 10-13-2008, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Dale:

But how many people are going to routinely press "F" twice?

Me, every time I want to show the windowed mode to someone before going back to fullscreen.

Surferminn · 10-13-2008, 09:05 AM

Me too, except I'd probably have it in windowed mode since that's my preferred mode especially with this neat scrolling. I'd show them the full screen and then back. Fortunately, it does not crash on my computer when I press F twice.

Dale · 10-13-2008, 09:49 PM

I upgraded the ATI Drivers to the latest version - Catalyst 8.9

[The good news for me is that the upgrade didn't cause the OTHER 3rd-party application to be messed up.]

Pressing F twice still causes MA3 (Beta 2) to crash. All the information that I could glean is:

"Faulting application ma3beta.scr. version 1.0.0.1. faulting module
kernel32.dll, version 5.1.2600.5512, fault address 0x0000cffd."

Dale · 10-20-2008, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Dale:

I upgraded the ATI Drivers to the latest version - Catalyst 8.9

[The good news for me is that the upgrade didn't cause the OTHER 3rd-party application to be messed up.]

Pressing F twice still causes MA3 (Beta 2) to crash. All the information that I could glean is:

"Faulting application ma3beta.scr. version 1.0.0.1. faulting module
kernel32.dll, version 5.1.2600.5512, fault address 0x0000cffd."

Well, I'll be TRIPLE dipped. [Just a note about "you never know".

Remember, upgrading the ATI driver to the latest version did NOT cause a problem with the 3rd party application, "as previous new driver versions had".

Wrong conclusion:

I was, of course, ALSO running MA3 Beta. Today's expiration caused me to go back to running MA 2.6

The problem with the 3rd party application is BACK.

So, the problem with the 3rd party application apparently REQUIRES:
1. Any recent version of ATI drivers... AND
2. MA 2.6

Combination of 3 things has the problem. [The problem symptom has always been "funny behavior of the screen UI of the 3rd party application after the screensaver exits". But since it only showed up whenever I updated the ATI drivers, and went away if I installed earlier ATI drivers, I never thought the screensaver might be contributing]

==========================================

Update: Installing Beta3 fixed the problem with the 3rd party application - and without a reboot.

However, I think I'll skip filing a bug report against MA 2.6

Dale · 04-05-2009, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Dale:

System is WXP SP3, Video card is Radeon X300.
MA3 is installed, placed in /windows/system32. set as default screensaver.

Right-click on desktop, choose properties, screen saver, preview. [Same thing happens when running directly by clicking on the file, by the way]
MA3 starts normally, shows about 64 fps, 1360x768x32, window size 1360x768.

Press F to go to widescreen mode. Shows about 8 fps (which seems strange, but not the problem). Window size 648x507

Without doing anything else, press F again. "...problem and needs to close..." (the usual unhelpful "do I want to send to Microsoft". I could capture the little bit of data in the report, if that would be helpful.

This is repeatable on my system. Didn't (yet) try it on a different computer.

After several updates of drivers, and updates of MA3, this problem still exists on only this one computer out of 8 that I have tested.

As far as I can tell, nobody else can duplicate it. And I can't think of anything else to try.

I do not expect Jim (or anybody else) to devote any time to this problem, and don't expect it to be fixed (other than by accident).

Ralph · 04-05-2009, 12:49 PM

Are your settings in Display Settings still as they should be?.. I can get some pretty weird screens if not set to my default screen size or automatic.. Will not crash it though

Dale · 04-05-2009, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Ralph:

Are your settings in Display Settings still as they should be?.. I can get some pretty weird screens if not set to my default screen size or automatic.. Will not crash it though

Display setting is "automatic". All other settings seem to be "normal". I don't get any weird screens on MA3 or any other programs. MA3 works fine in all modes (including screensaver).

If I set MA3 to start in windowed mode, and click on the desktop icon, I can press the "F" key repeatedly, and MA3 switches alternately between windowed and fullscreen mode as often as I wish.

If I set MA3 to not start in windowed mode, and click on the desktop icon, MA3 starts in fullscreen mode (of course). Pressing the "F" key switches correctly to windowed mode. Pressing the "F" key again causes MA3 to crash.

As far as I'm concerned, the answer is "don't do that". However, as you (and Cliff) pointed out elsewhere, it's important to report problems. This one has continued through several versions of drivers and versions of MA3 on this one system (and no others). So, it's my problem on this system, not something that Jim should even think about.

Footnote: This thread is labeled "driver" - but I've updated drivers several times, and the same card/driver combination on another computer does not exhibit the failure mode.

Ralph · 04-05-2009, 04:07 PM

I wonder if it related to a second monitor issue.. a low FPS as you observed is a problem when a window spans both screens. Perhaps at some time you had a SS in a window on a second monitor, now the windowed SS wants to start there but can't... and dies. Possibly a bad location left in a registry.... Just wild guesses here

Dale · 04-05-2009, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Ralph:

I wonder if it related to a second monitor issue.. a low FPS as you observed is a problem when a window spans both screens. Perhaps at some time you had a SS in a window on a second monitor, now the windowed SS wants to start there but can't... and dies. Possibly a bad location left in a registry.... Just wild guesses here

Thanks for the suggestions, but...

I've never had two monitors on this PC. The video card does have two-monitor capability, but display properties indicates that Monitor 2 is "not active" (in other words, nothing is connected to that monitor port).

The low FPS is because this is a wimpy video card (ATI X300). However, FPS in windowed mode is now better (newer driver).

Oh, and the MA3 crash comes when trying to transition from windowed to fullscreen mode (after first having transitioned from fullscreen to windowed).

henemly · 04-06-2009, 08:38 AM

That 'crash' would really bother me (being a perfectionist).
Hope ya get it fixed eventually.

Dale · 04-06-2009, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by henemly:

That 'crash' would really bother me (being a perfectionist).
Hope ya get it fixed eventually.

As an IT professional, the fact that it exists bothers me too - but since it only is on one PC and I estimate it would take me 20-hours-with-luck to track it down, I can live with it. Particularly since there are some excellent ways of avoiding it, such as:

1. Always start the simulation in windowed mode (from the desktop icon), never in fullscreen mode.

2. (If Jim isn't listening) just use it as a ScreenSaver.

10-11-2008, 08:06 PM	#1
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Crash when "F" is pressed a second time System is WXP SP3, Video card is Radeon X300. MA3 is installed, placed in /windows/system32. set as default screensaver. Right-click on desktop, choose properties, screen saver, preview. [Same thing happens when running directly by clicking on the file, by the way] MA3 starts normally, shows about 64 fps, 1360x768x32, window size 1360x768. Press F to go to widescreen mode. Shows about 8 fps (which seems strange, but not the problem). Window size 648x507 Without doing anything else, press F again. "...problem and needs to close..." (the usual unhelpful "do I want to send to Microsoft". I could capture the little bit of data in the report, if that would be helpful. This is repeatable on my system. Didn't (yet) try it on a different computer.

10-11-2008, 09:43 PM	#3
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Are those cards both using the same drivers? When you are in window mode on the troublesome computer, do the Statistics still say "HAL"? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-11-2008, 11:05 PM	#5
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,816	Sorry, I'm out of ideas on this one. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-13-2008, 04:20 AM	#7
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Nah, The next guy who comes across that bug might not like if the program he has bought doesn't work properly. Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

10-13-2008, 08:57 AM	#9
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Originally posted by Dale: But how many people are going to routinely press "F" twice? Me, every time I want to show the windowed mode to someone before going back to fullscreen. Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

10-11-2008, 09:00 PM	#2
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	The crash does NOT occur on a fairly-similar system. WXP SP3, etc. The screen shows that the video card is "ATI Radeon X300/X550/X1050 Series". 1024x768x32 Startup window size is 1024x768, 110 fps Press "F", window size is 648x507, 110 fps Press "F" again, it properly goes back to 1024x768 Footnote: I didn't notice this before, but: when in Windowed mode (at least accessed via preview), moving the mouse does not exit the screensaver. Pressing Esc does exit. And in fullscreen mode, moving the mouse DOES exit the screensaver.

10-11-2008, 10:27 PM	#4
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Are those cards both using the same drivers? No. I can provide ATI version numbers, if that would be helpful. As I recall, the "troublesome computer" is back-versioned on ATI drivers, because when I go to a newer driver version I have problems with another 3rd-party application. Originally posted by Jim Sachs: When you are in window mode on the troublesome computer, do the Statistics still say "HAL"? Yes. "HAL (pure hw vp): RADEON X300 Series" In both window mode and fullscreen. Not that it's helpful - but it "dies" in kernel32.dll You're probably right about the driver version - or perhaps something unique with this particular computer.

10-12-2008, 07:25 PM	#6
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Doesn't crash on 3 other computers with different cards/drivers. So, forget it. "Just don't press F twice on that computer...."

10-13-2008, 08:33 AM	#8
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle: Nah, The next guy who comes across that bug might not like if the program he has bought doesn't work properly. I suspect it would be fixed if I updated this computer to the latest video drivers. The last time I did that, another 3rd party application "broke". Perhaps I'll try again. Otherwise - "upgrade to the latest drivers" would be the right advice. If this were a major function problem, I'd be worried. But how many people are going to routinely press "F" twice?

10-13-2008, 09:05 AM	#10
Surferminn Senior Puddle Jumper Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: California Posts: 6,017	Me too, except I'd probably have it in windowed mode since that's my preferred mode especially with this neat scrolling. I'd show them the full screen and then back. Fortunately, it does not crash on my computer when I press F twice. Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes.

10-13-2008, 09:49 PM	#11
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	I upgraded the ATI Drivers to the latest version - Catalyst 8.9 [The good news for me is that the upgrade didn't cause the OTHER 3rd-party application to be messed up.] Pressing F twice still causes MA3 (Beta 2) to crash. All the information that I could glean is: "Faulting application ma3beta.scr. version 1.0.0.1. faulting module kernel32.dll, version 5.1.2600.5512, fault address 0x0000cffd."

10-20-2008, 01:30 PM	#12
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Dale: I upgraded the ATI Drivers to the latest version - Catalyst 8.9 [The good news for me is that the upgrade didn't cause the OTHER 3rd-party application to be messed up.] Pressing F twice still causes MA3 (Beta 2) to crash. All the information that I could glean is: "Faulting application ma3beta.scr. version 1.0.0.1. faulting module kernel32.dll, version 5.1.2600.5512, fault address 0x0000cffd." Well, I'll be TRIPLE dipped. [Just a note about "you never know". Remember, upgrading the ATI driver to the latest version did NOT cause a problem with the 3rd party application, "as previous new driver versions had". Wrong conclusion: I was, of course, ALSO running MA3 Beta. Today's expiration caused me to go back to running MA 2.6 The problem with the 3rd party application is BACK. So, the problem with the 3rd party application apparently REQUIRES: 1. Any recent version of ATI drivers... AND 2. MA 2.6 Combination of 3 things has the problem. [The problem symptom has always been "funny behavior of the screen UI of the 3rd party application after the screensaver exits". But since it only showed up whenever I updated the ATI drivers, and went away if I installed earlier ATI drivers, I never thought the screensaver might be contributing] ========================================== Update: Installing Beta3 fixed the problem with the 3rd party application - and without a reboot. However, I think I'll skip filing a bug report against MA 2.6 Last edited by Dale; 10-20-2008 at 04:21 PM.

04-05-2009, 10:48 AM	#13
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Dale: System is WXP SP3, Video card is Radeon X300. MA3 is installed, placed in /windows/system32. set as default screensaver. Right-click on desktop, choose properties, screen saver, preview. [Same thing happens when running directly by clicking on the file, by the way] MA3 starts normally, shows about 64 fps, 1360x768x32, window size 1360x768. Press F to go to widescreen mode. Shows about 8 fps (which seems strange, but not the problem). Window size 648x507 Without doing anything else, press F again. "...problem and needs to close..." (the usual unhelpful "do I want to send to Microsoft". I could capture the little bit of data in the report, if that would be helpful. This is repeatable on my system. Didn't (yet) try it on a different computer. After several updates of drivers, and updates of MA3, this problem still exists on only this one computer out of 8 that I have tested. As far as I can tell, nobody else can duplicate it. And I can't think of anything else to try. I do not expect Jim (or anybody else) to devote any time to this problem, and don't expect it to be fixed (other than by accident).

04-05-2009, 12:49 PM	#14
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,454	Are your settings in Display Settings still as they should be?.. I can get some pretty weird screens if not set to my default screen size or automatic.. Will not crash it though

04-05-2009, 01:04 PM	#15
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Ralph: Are your settings in Display Settings still as they should be?.. I can get some pretty weird screens if not set to my default screen size or automatic.. Will not crash it though Display setting is "automatic". All other settings seem to be "normal". I don't get any weird screens on MA3 or any other programs. MA3 works fine in all modes (including screensaver). If I set MA3 to start in windowed mode, and click on the desktop icon, I can press the "F" key repeatedly, and MA3 switches alternately between windowed and fullscreen mode as often as I wish. If I set MA3 to not start in windowed mode, and click on the desktop icon, MA3 starts in fullscreen mode (of course). Pressing the "F" key switches correctly to windowed mode. Pressing the "F" key again causes MA3 to crash. As far as I'm concerned, the answer is "don't do that". However, as you (and Cliff) pointed out elsewhere, it's important to report problems. This one has continued through several versions of drivers and versions of MA3 on this one system (and no others). So, it's my problem on this system, not something that Jim should even think about. Footnote: This thread is labeled "driver" - but I've updated drivers several times, and the same card/driver combination on another computer does not exhibit the failure mode. Last edited by Dale; 04-05-2009 at 02:54 PM.

04-05-2009, 04:07 PM	#16
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,454	I wonder if it related to a second monitor issue.. a low FPS as you observed is a problem when a window spans both screens. Perhaps at some time you had a SS in a window on a second monitor, now the windowed SS wants to start there but can't... and dies. Possibly a bad location left in a registry.... Just wild guesses here

04-05-2009, 06:47 PM	#17
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Ralph: I wonder if it related to a second monitor issue.. a low FPS as you observed is a problem when a window spans both screens. Perhaps at some time you had a SS in a window on a second monitor, now the windowed SS wants to start there but can't... and dies. Possibly a bad location left in a registry.... Just wild guesses here Thanks for the suggestions, but... I've never had two monitors on this PC. The video card does have two-monitor capability, but display properties indicates that Monitor 2 is "not active" (in other words, nothing is connected to that monitor port). The low FPS is because this is a wimpy video card (ATI X300). However, FPS in windowed mode is now better (newer driver). Oh, and the MA3 crash comes when trying to transition from windowed to fullscreen mode (after first having transitioned from fullscreen to windowed).

04-06-2009, 08:38 AM	#18
henemly asdf Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hiko, CommieFagnia Posts: 278	That 'crash' would *really* bother me (being a perfectionist). Hope ya get it fixed eventually.

04-06-2009, 09:56 AM	#19
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by henemly: That 'crash' would *really* bother me (being a perfectionist). Hope ya get it fixed eventually. As an IT professional, the fact that it exists bothers me too - but since it only is on one PC and I estimate it would take me 20-hours-with-luck to track it down, I can live with it. Particularly since there are some excellent ways of avoiding it, such as: 1. Always start the simulation in windowed mode (from the desktop icon), never in fullscreen mode. 2. (If Jim isn't listening) just use it as a ScreenSaver.