Simulating the simulation...

[Digital Lungfish]

Jim,

You set out to create a simulation of a reef tank with the SSA, right? What exactly is a reef tank? Well, it's a simulation of reef life in the ocean, pretty obvious right? How ironic it is that you've gone and created a simulation of a simulation.

I know you figured that it would appeal to people that have always wanted to have a reef tank, but didn't have the time, or money to put into keeping one. Well, aside from the enjoyment and stress of keeping a reef tank, there's the satisfaction a person gets from simulating reef life in their home by maintaining that eco system. With the SSA you've pretty much removed ALL of the maintenance involved with keeping a reef tank. In fact, the only thing in the SSA that is borrowed would be the boundaries (walls).

I guess I find it somewhat strange that you didn't instead set out to create what most people try to simulate with reef tanks in the first place, a more realistic representation of a reef eco system, much like SimAquarium is trying to do.

Don't get me wrong, no complaints what so ever, I guess I just find it ironic and sort of puzzling that you went this route. Your thoughts? Did you ever consider going the same route as SimAquarium or did you have other ideas?

[Jim Sachs]

If you mean adding features which require the user to actually maintain the tank, as they would with a real one, then yes I have considered it. This would be an optional mode for educational purposes, in which you must feed the fish, keep the right PH balance, fight diseases, and a hundred other things necessary to keep the fish alive. Only when you are successful at keeping the eco-system going in "full manual" mode would you be qualified to set up a real reef system.

What is preventing this is the amount of research necessary on my part to find out all this stuff. People might be hesitant to take advice from someone who's never actaully done it, so I'd have to set up my own real system (as I'm now doing with a freshwater tank). Anyway, a huge amount of work would be involved for (probably) a very small increase in sales.

If, on the other hand, you mean simulating a real reef instead of a tank, then there's no way. I walk a razor-edge between what's possible and what would take a hundred years to accomplish. Only by limiting my target environment to something roughly the size of a monitor can I achieve realism that could fool someone into thinking it's real. Increasing the size of this "universe" or allowing the camera to travel in the Z-direction would increase the work involved by at least an order of magnitude. So instead of 2 years to develop, it would be 20. This is why all the other 3D apps out there have a certain unmistakable look. No proper shading, angular low-polygon objects, textures which get big and blurry as they approach the camera. This is necessary if you are going to expand into different castle corriders, racetracks, or an ocean reef. Those developers might say "Sure it looks like crap, but look how MUCH crap we give you!". I've found that there are many people who share my vision that one small diamond is more desirable than 100 tons of crap.

[Tiny Turtle]

Wow, that's a lot of crap

Tiny Diamond

[feldon34]

I think what we're talking about here is the depth of the tank being 20 feet instead of 3 feet. Not any special camera movements, seeing the ocean surface, etc.

Just some more depth, a second set of coral further back. Nothing insane.

[Socrates]

Originally posted by feldon23
I think what we're talking about here is the depth of the tank being 20 feet instead of 3 feet. Not any special camera movements, seeing the ocean surface, etc.

Just some more depth, a second set of coral further back. Nothing insane.

Maybe like it was an undersea, crystal clear web cam

I like the tank structure better than the idea of a reef though.

I want it to look like I turned my monitor into a tank.

[Digital Lungfish]

If you mean adding features which require the user to actually maintain the tank, as they would with a real one, then yes I have considered it. This would be an optional mode for educational purposes, in which you must feed the fish, keep the right PH balance, fight diseases, and a hundred other things necessary to keep the fish alive.

Nope, not what I meant.

If, on the other hand, you mean simulating a real reef instead of a tank, then there's no way. I walk a razor-edge between what's possible and what would take a hundred years to accomplish. Only by limiting my target environment to something roughly the size of a monitor can I achieve realism that could fool someone into thinking it's real.

Actually, I was wondering why you hadn't created somerthing in between that and the current SSA background, but not to such an extreme as you've described, just a bit more depth and realism. In fact, Morgan's translation of my comments isn't too far off base.

However, that being said, hasn't SimAquarium managed to do this with their recent release of version 2? Their new background does a fairly decent job of mimicking a tide pool alcove without going too far out into the distance and uses coral for the barriers. My only complaint being the back wall rock texture, but that's about it. Do you consider their app as being "crap" as you put it?

allowing the camera to travel in the Z-direction would increase the work involved by at least an order of magnitude.

Personally, I wouldn't want the camera to move in the Z-direction, what you currently have planned for the 3D background is ideal.

Anyway, SimAquarium aside, thanks for letting us pick your brain. I thought it would be interesting to hear what ideas you had considered and tossed around prior to going with the SSA as we know it.

[Jim Sachs]

The idea of SereneScreen is to turn your monitor into an Aquarium. The depth is meant to be 12-18 inches, just like the monitor. When 3D glasses are adjusted properly, the illusion is extremely effective (and will be much more so when I get the 3D background done). Turning it into an open reef with a 20-foot depth would mean throwing away the principle that SereneScreen is founded on. Even without moving the camera into the scene, the work curve would increase tremendously. All those objects in the distace would have to be modeled and textured. The under-surface of the water would show, which means about 6 months to do it right. The fish would spend much of their time so far away that they wouldn't show up. To maintain a reasonable amount of authenticity, it would also mean limiting the creatures available to those indiginous to a specific part of the world. In an aquarium, you can mix and match creatures from all continents as long as the conditions required are roughly the same.

No, thanks -- I'll stick to the niche that I've chosen.

[feldon34]

Again, the idea is not to recreate the ocean, just a bigger tank. It doesn't have to be 20 feet.

And actually, I think it would be nice to have a tank with 20-30 fish but only 7-8 fish in the foreground (the rest are pecking at coral in the distance).

Anyway, you've made your decision and I know you have enough work on your plate as it is...

[Digital Lungfish]

Turning it into an open reef with a 20-foot depth would mean throwing away the principle that SereneScreen is founded on.

Sigh

Somewhere along the way my original comments/questions got misinterpreted. Please understand Jim, I wasn't questioning (as in complaining or trying to find fault in) your reason for making the SSA what it is. I was really just curious as to what other ideas you "might" have had earlier on in the beginning before you finally went with the decision to go with an aquarium layout. So please don't try to defend why you made the SSA the way it is, I understand the reasons and totally respect your work.

Anyway, I apologize if I some how put you on the defensive, it was not my intention. I should have made my self more clear as to what I was asking and why. If anything, I thought my questions and your responses might have provided the forum with something more in dept to read about you and the SSA's origins.

[Jim Sachs]

I certainly don't want to give the impression that I was defensive or offended in any way by your questions, DL. In fact, whenever I see your signature on a post, I always think "Oh, good, here comes something intelligent."

[Louis]

Quote from Feldon:
***Again, the idea is not to recreate the ocean, just a bigger tank. It doesn't have to be 20 feet.

And actually, I think it would be nice to have a tank with 20-30 fish but only 7-8 fish in the foreground (the rest are pecking at coral in the distance). ***

Absolutely agree.......
The more depth JIM will give us, the better of SS will be....but
The world is cruel.

[Jav400]

Jim,

Maybe it would help, ( if you have anything laid out in your mind at this point ) to give a short description of what you "hope" the 3D background will look like. I know that in the past you have said that you would like to have coral and overhangs, small caves maybe, for the future Octopus and Zebra Eel to hide in, featherdusters, opening and closing clams, and movement throughout. But, maybe it would help people if you had somewhat more description as to placement of items and so on. Now, I know that alot of those things will have to be worked out as you go, but if you had some idea for people to grasp onto such as "large coral on the left with maybe a few featherdusters there, smaller pieces gravitating towards the middle and some branching pieces on the right with clams scattered in that direction and more movement in the center." We all realize that these things would only be " how you hope to lay things out" and finding and building to fit your dreams is a whole different story, but I think there are alot of people that would like to have a general idea as to what your layout dreams might be.

[Digital Lungfish]

I certainly don't want to give the impression that I was defensive or offended in any way by your questions, DL.

No problem Jim. If anything, the misunderstanding is on my part and is more likely to be the result of the god awful head cold/sinus infection/soar throat/chest cold that I've had for the past 5 weeks (yes, 5 looooong weeks) combined with the over use of Robitusin and Dayquil cough suppressants and Halls cough drops. In other words, I'm sick as a dog and lucky I can even drag myself upstairs to use the PC. That being said, thanks for being understanding and clearing that up.

In fact, whenever I see your signature on a post, I always think "Oh, good, here comes something intelligent."

No smilie icon can do this justice, but I've got a smile going from ear to ear right now. Thanks for the kind words Jim.

[Jim Sachs]

Jav -- that would be a big job, to unpack all the 3D background stuff and try to remember what I was doing, since I'm totally immersed in the Freshwater tank right now. But basically the scene as it appears now would be recreated in 3D, and would form the right side of the tank. The camera would be able to pan left to uncover the other half, which would contain many of the items you mention.

DL -- I've had the same thing, a series of colds over the past few weeks. Finally feeling pretty good with only a cough remaining.