My personal opinion - it's time.
 

I appreciate that it has been unexpectedly difficult to accomplish the major improvements in fish movement. We've almost all been patient, and we're quite willing to wait longer while Jim gets this done to his satisfaction - and then for the optional Creature Packs.

...however, Beta 10d was released over 6 months ago. No visible progress since then.

That's a long time for a single Beta release.

Personal opinion: it's time for another Beta release.

Assuming that there's nothing to release in terms of fish movements, there are still a lot of bugs and product features that have been covered in this forum - that could be fixed. Yeah, I know it would take time away from the work on "New realistic fish behavior, including schooling, chasing, and pecking at corals."

A partial list of things that (in my opinion) should be done before waiting another 6 months:

o Bug fixes and feature improvements that have already been discussed here.

o (quote) "Automatic lights. There will soon be a greatly expanded interface for customizing the background colors"

o The crystal improvements that have been promised.

o The various documentation, help-file, and UI improvements that have already been "promised" here.

o Perhaps even the starfish...

Now, I'm rather sure that Jim would rather keep focused on the realistic fish behavior. And I'm sure that expressing my personal opinion will draw some angry responses.

So, a question - if 6 months between Beta releases isn't very long, then how long in your opinion would be "too long"?

:silent: This is one of those posts I generally would not touch with a ten foot pole.

However...I will say that if there was a "TEAM" working on MA3 I would also be impatient. Since Jim is the sole designer and engineer, a longer development time is to be expected. How long is not for me to say.

Arghh, this is a tough one...
Let's see... documents, helpfiles, crystal, User interface, automatic lights, or new fish models and behaviour?

hmm...

OK, I will never read documents or helpfiles, I don't use the crystal, I hardly ever change settings...

I'd have to chose new fish models and behaviour...

2nd vote here for new crystal stuff.

It all depends on the way the programmer ( ie Sachsu-san ) works . Does he work on one issue at a time exclusively and then save his progress as a releasable beta , or does he hop about from one thing to another as the inspiration strikes ? From my own very limited programming experience I would say that I tended towards the latter . And then , Jim is an artist as well as a programmer which I'm sure influences his decisions as to when to release new work .

Just my two cents , not having a go at you Dale . You sometimes say the things that many of us have been thinking . << Though I'm taking the 5th as to whether this is one of those times :p >>

To paraphrase Thomas Edison - Though I haven't found algorithms for the fish movement or collision avoidance, I have found a thousand things that DON'T work. If I divert my attention now, I'll quickly forget what I've already tried.

As Confucius said :haste brings no success. https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...ilies/cool.gif Be patient,one day Jim would make you thrill all day long..............

So long as you keep finding new ideas that don't work keep at it, when you run out of ideas that don't work and still have not found the magic combination then it is time to move on to other parts.

If memory serves, that's usually predicted to be next October.... ;)

Jim, have you considered, that if/when you next release an update, - in the blink of an eye, the first of many will immediately start saying, 'I can't wait for the next....'
The ironic thing being, that there is nothing in this world more certain, than 'wait' is exactly what they will HAVE to do! :)

Oh, yes - I've certainly noticed that. Even when the updates are only a day apart!

I've had a lot of other stuff going on lately which has further slowed progress and made it harder to concentrate. Sometimes real life gets in the way of writing computer programs.

All I can suggest is for everyone to go and spend some time with their families, and check back every once in a while to see if there are any MA3 updates.

Jim - make sure you heed your own advice, especially during this time of year. ;)

Fair enough, on all counts. And I certainly didn't want to suggest something that would slow down the development timeline.

That would be MA3 Beta updates.

All software is Beta software. Discuss.

Agreed (and off-topic, so thanks for doing that).

Discussion:

What percentage of software being sold today has BETA as part of its official name? (quoting: Marine Aquarium 3 BETA - Windows )

If you purchased something 10 months ago, with the FAQ reading as follows, what would have been your expectation of the meaning of "soon"?

Please believe that I'm not criticizing the February decision to start selling MA3 Beta - or the decision to honestly call it Beta.

I'm just asserting that, in my opinion, calling something BETA (whether or not it is being sold) -- and then stating what is coming soon -- sets certain expectations as to when incremental improvements will be made. Those expectations are fuzzy, of course - but (in my opinion) a general consensus would be something shorter than 6 months.

Possibly the only honest listing one can find. Until it is abandoned pretty well all software is beta, whether included in the name or not. It is rare software that will not have numerous updates within its life cycle.
To me using the term BETA in the title means this program is under active development so stay tuned. If Jim could turn the clock back 6 months he may well have taken the "beta" out of the title. It has proven more time consuming / difficult than initially anticipated but it has not been abandoned so a "BETA" it still is.

I absolutely agree that the name is honest, and may as you say be the only honest name that can be found.

When I buy (non-Beta) software, my only real expectations are that there will be future updates, and that I will probably be charged for some of them (called "new versions with added features")

My point was:

A. There's not much software named "Beta" that is not free. Selling MA3 Beta sets higher expectations than a free Beta.

B. Clearly advertising major feature additions "coming soon" sets higher expectations than not saying when any updates are coming.

Summary: The combination of paid Beta and major features coming soon sets even higher expectations.

Easy fix: Stop calling it Beta.

There are no known significant bugs. Now whether you feel that it has the features you expect or not is irrelevant.

Apple iMovie 08 removed a significant amount of features found in iMovie 07. The latest Final Cut Express removed significant features from previous versions of Final Cut Express.

So I'll advise Jim to simply remove the Beta tag. When he does an update, it will be 3.0.1 or 3.1 or 3.5 or whatever.

That works for me (if it's acceptable to Jim, of course).

I'll consider it.

Can we draw a line under all this nonsense now, and let everyone get back to doing things that are more productive?

It's a fair point that newcomers buying the beta might expect a shorter timescale for the 'full' release than we old-timers. Also this release is fully functional in its own right, so needn't be called a 'beta'. I still get people coming up to my desk saying "Wow! that's amazing!", and I still find myself gazing at it while time slips past unnoticed...

The only problem removing the 'beta' designation, would be avoiding the confusion of existing beta users who'd think that there had been some change made to the program...

But anyway, I'd just like to wish Jim seasonal greetings, and to take as long as he likes - stress and pressure just slow creative work.

As Leonardo da Vinci said:

"Every now and then go away, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer."

All software is beta - I think not.
 

It is relevant, if you bought the Beta with the expectation that the soon to be released features are coming soon - not that I did. As Dale has said it's all about expectations.

I also personally disagree with the statement that all actively developed software is 'beta'. The continuous process of maintaining and developing a piece of software is very different from moving it from Beta to final release.

Do you have a perception that maybe it simply cannot ever be accomplished?

It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left?

We all presume you will have a lot of years left.

But perhaps you can find a different way to define the task, that allows accomplishment in finite time.

Jim, I am not a software developer/engineer, but since game developers (especially first-person-shooters) have been using collision avoidance for years there must be a way to accomplish what you need.

Maybe you've hit a wall and it is time to ask for some outside help. There must be a software developer's manual or a college course available somewhere that could explain the process? Whatever happens and no matter how long it takes we are rooting for your success.

Good luck.

(Mith closes window and goes back to his trusty internet porn)

Maybe instead of trying to avoid collisions you can just have the fish nip eachother when there is a collision and then turn away like real fish? Or instead of checking every point in the universe just create an invisible sphere around each fish and when they intersect have the fish change direction.

Or as I like to say.

You can have it right or you can have it now, but you can't have it right now.

my moto is
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"never trust a plumber that bites his fingernails" :lol:

I think this program "as is" is a bargain. Anything above and beyond what we have now is gravy :TU:

Please note that my starting post did not suggest having the realistic fish movements sooner. In fact, I suggested "right later". After doing some other things right. Sooner.

Jim said that wouldn't work for him. OK.

I'm new here.....but I read a ton before registering. I've been in the forum biz for a VERY long time. Gravitation to me, in the forum world is relaxation. This place is perfect.

Try going to a race car, politic, hunting, gun, flower, farming, etc. forum. You'll always get posts that rile admins...and trickle down to members.

Here...beta or ongoing program is splitting hairs. Dale your post should make all the people involved with this software and forum proud!!!

You want more. That is the true meaning of success. Its like a song you never want to end...or a movie that was two hours but you wanted three.

I love the fact we have what we have! Remember.....and this is important, The name of this particular program is
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SereneScreen.


Serene is the target! I don't know Jim from you.....but my gut says that we are all privileged to rub elbowes and encourage the powers to be.

In no way is this post meant to be confrontational...its meant to close gaps and make all of us stronger :)

Nice post spetro

It will get there when Jim gets it the way he wants it to be. It might not be as fast as some want, but we have never been disappointed with the results.

Yes, and

Yes.

Jim,

Many of us have been following your one man venture into creating the perfect digital aquarium and will continue to do so as long as you are willing. I'm glad it is still called a beta since that means you are continuing to work on it. An aquarium offers infinite possibilities for new creatures. I look forward to any new updates and currently enjoy the latest build. So God bless and enjoy your Christmas Holidays with your family. The same goes for everyone else in this forum :)

Just a liitle thought. When 3.0 first came out for testing, didn't we talk about these being the behaviour models from 1.0? People have mentioned that the movement was more natural in 2.x. Are there different models for 2.x then?

It's always been basically the same algorithm. A little more "repel" had to be added for MA3 because of the greater number of fish and 3D background. This can look somewhat unrealistic when a fish gets backed into a corner and exhibits some non-Newtonian physics to get out.

Maybe you should send that fish back to "school".


ba dum bump



Sorry, couldn't resist.

:lol:

I can never find my gun when I need it...

Where is Commander Data when you need him? I'm sure he could find all of the collision points in a few seconds.:lol: