Can we Have a WIP Thread?
 

A lot of other projects I am interested in have WIP pages in which they show and describe what they are currently working on, either something that is working well or has been thrown away as a bad idea including pictures etc.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I am slightly losing interest without some update.

This all happened when Jim announced the Freshwater tank. This is when both projects seem to have slowed considerably. At least before, fish were being added to the Marine Screensaver every so often with pictures of potential textures and photos etc on threads.

Now it seems that both the Marine and the Fresh water screensavers have almost grounded to a halt in terms of development. Obviously this isn’t true....but without updates and a WIP page, we all can see what is being done and problems or breakthroughs can be seen and would keep us all up to date and interested once more.

Personally, I thought at first the Freshwater Tank was a good idea, in retrospect, I think it will not sell aswell due to its overall look compared to the Marine Aquarium. All Tropical/Freshwater fish by comparison are washed out colour wise and are not quite as interesting to look at. Plus with all the coral and so forth, the marine Aquarium looks so beautiful.

Right now we have a fully working Marine Aquarium and no Freshwater at all. Since the marine needs work, and by that I mean very hard work to convert old DirectX code to version 9, it would be better to finish off the Marine completely and create the 3D background where I think sales of this screensaver is going to boom. I am so looking forward to this next element of the screensaver.

I know this is a bit of moan, but I am a huge fan of this project and really want it to develop further but not at the cost of the other holding it back.

Good idea but I doubt you will get those in the know to commit to any hints of progress. :silent:

It is my understanding that there will be no more work done on the 3D background for MA until the Freshwater Aquarium is done. Right, Jim?
As far as FA having washed out colors and uninteresting fish, I think not. Remember, this will be a creation of Jim Sachs.

Well, that's one of the problems, making it interesting enough to rival the saltwater tank. One way I had planned to do this was to have much more extensive fish movement. My old method of creating and saving the fish models didn't really support this, and I'm currently stuck trying to come up with a new one.

Jim,

In terms of movement, can't you pinch the goldfish routine from Prolific [Edit] and modify it?

I come back to the forum to see whats going on, and I see no updates or pictures just general chit chat which is fine. This seems to of happened since Serene took over the sales side of things. After much talk of the 3D background and moving clamshells and moving sea anemones, this is where I see huge huge sales.

Isnt it worth bringing in someone to upgrade the code to DX9c and create thd 3D background? Some iniital outlay will have great results once this is complete. Ok its taken away some of your control and creativity but you coudl then change some aspects of it once its complete. You coudl still do the textures if not the actual code and thats where your talents are.....graphics.

As your still stumped with the Freshwater tank can we rethink moving back to the Saltwater? Thats where all your fans are currently. Thats why everyone one knows your name in "Cheers" fashion.

I'm looking forward to the Freshwater, a lot! There's a better chance of getting digital versions of fish I've kept before that way...

Just to clarify, it's "Prolific", not "Serene". Carry on. ;)

DrFish,

Don't get me wrong, I would love a Freshwater Screensaver too, but as Jim has already admitted he's stumped.

On another thread he says this about it and I quote: "If I can't break new ground with the Freshwater tank, then it's not worth doing."

Now this maybe Jim's own frustration coming through rather than potentially Jim just giving up on it. But then again it has been such a long time since this project was started.

I also think that amalgamating both MA and MAT projects together should be something to consider aswell whilst the Freshwater Tank isn’t going anywhere fast. This will make it so much easier to update one single project than updating 2 or 3 or even 4 if you include the widescreen edition.

At the end of the day, it would seem that the Freshwater tank isn’t coming any time soon. So lets get back to Jim’s original passion, The Marine Saltwater tank and get one project fully completed to what Jim’s original vision was.

In the mean time, Jim can take his time and think about the Freshwater tank and come up with some new fish movement routines.

Oh and thanks TT for the correction! I forgot it was Prolific! DOH!

Although I have considered going back to the Marine tank, I'm immediately faced with the same problem - coming up with a better way of transforming Lightwave objects to DirectX objects.

I can't use the Goldish movement for 3 reasons: It belongs to Prolific, goldfish don't move like other fish, and their models use far more polygons than I am willing to accept.

Regarding the idea of farming out part of the work to other people - what portion of YOUR hobbies to you farm out to others?

I think if I want to see Freshwater fish by the end of 2004, I am going to have to lock Jim and the Lightwave development team in a room for 4 hours.

Only 4 hours? You do realize it's almost October, don't you? ;)

As a Forensic Expert in Video and Audio, I farm out work all the time in an attempt to please my client to provide good service and expertise. Some jobs I am unable to perform in certain areas such as Photography and therefore to ensure I don't land up with egg on my face, I farm it to someone who can do the work. Which makes perfect business sense.

This project ONCE was a hobby, its far from one at this stage especially when Prolific has taken over the sales and some of the admin side of things.

If you let go of the reigns for certain jobs you might make a huge breakthrough you have been looking for. Nobody on this website expects you to have all the answers especially me. I appreciate everything you have achieved with the Marine Aquarium; it's simply the best on the market......but could be so much more.

The day the 3D background arrives I will be over the moon. At the moment I see it slowly slipping away into the distance and nothing to show for the Freshwater its hard to feel slightly disappointed as fan of this screensaver.

What Jim needs is a transparent way to work with an object sometimes as a whole and sometimes in groups. He needs to be able to add rotation and transformation centerpoints to a larger object which only certain vertices respond to and with different percentages. It is inverse kinematics with some more complexity thrown in.

I have no doubt that Pixar, PDI, and Dreamworks are doing this yet I see games and screen savers struggle (and usually fail) to do this well. What A guru of this type of animation needs to help Jim write DirectX code that does this on-the-fly without bringing a PC to its knees.

Do I think the theory could be hammered out in 4 hours? Absolutely.
Do I think Jim write code that does what I've described above without using some Algebra and Geometry and some communication with Newtek (creators of Lightwave)? Miracles occur, but who can build a business model on that? :)

I was thinking along the lines of figuring all that out and then enslaving the Lightwave team to help Jim finish it by the end of the year... 4 hours for the first part? Sure, I don't know... 3 months to finish after that? I'm inclined to think not.

Not that I'm upset about it or anything, he can take all the time he needs. This is where his policy of no release dates is great, you can't have a delay if you don't set a date. :)

Jim does not feel comfortable either sharing or using someone else's code. So that brings us back to sitting down in a room with a whiteboard and sketching out what it's going to take to do this.

:(

(deep breath and a long sigh), I will be patience, and in the mean time I am spending money on other aquarium screen savers that do not perform and often leave me very dissatisfied.

Having cooked many turnips in my time, there is no blood to be found in there unless you slip with the knife. Jim, wear gloves!

I'm sure this has been covered, but what software is being used for rendering? What format are the objects saved in?

JIm,

I think from the resposes above, you can tell that other poeple have some of the same views as myself.

Furthermore, and more importantly, your fans want to help you.

Listen to your customers......take on board what people are suggesting.

More importantly take the hand of friendship that feldon and others are offering you....it doesnt come around too often!

The fish are created in Lightwave. They are exported in DirectX format which Jim cleans up for importation into the Aquarium. The DirectX file he loads is a bit different from your usual DirectX file because it contains a frame of animation (the fish in a bent state).

I think that the LW2DX conversion "problem" can be analyzed in depth, and get solved.

I don't know if that "custom converter" already exists or not. If not, then if Jim is not able to code it by his own, perhaps others are willing to do it (even for a non commercial purpose).

It would be nice to talk in depth about it. Perhaps i (or someone - i.e. Ad_Enuff) could help. What we (all) really want is to get this problem solved as soon as possible.

I'm not talking about releasing a demo or just some screenshots. I'm just talking about solving the LW2DX problem in order to make some progresses.

I'm not sure if the Lightwave creators are willing to collaborate with Jim. Is the Lightwave model format a well known format? is a binary format, or a plain-text format?.

I could do a serious research, even writing (if needed) a LW2DX custom model converter. It's only Jim's decision to leave us cooperate with him (or not).

It comes a moment in which it doesn't make any sense to block the project development for a single problem, and it is necessary to delegate some tasks to others. Are we waiting for the Lightwave creators to get in touch with Jim for explaining the inside of the format?. Is that the only one solution to the problem?.

We all recognize Jim's talent as a master artist, and we want the FA to be done by him, but it doesn't make any sense to keep waiting for a single problem that takes so long to be solved (and the LW2DX converter problem actually is not new...).

Sorry for my comments, but it's what i think.

I agree whole heartedly! Nice to see people rally round to get things done and try to help Jim out on this issue of LW2DX.

Perhaps once new LW2DX converer is made, it perhaps will bring a huge breakthrough in terms of this project.

I am not here to kiss ass, other threads are clearly doing that for me and Jim's talent has already been praised. This thread I hope, will thrash out some of the problems and give Jim the emotional and technical support, ideas and tools he needs to carry on.

Lets stop talking about the problem and let's all try and help solve it once and for all.

I think this is a good effort to show our will to contribute to Jim's "hobby". The whole thing is probably to complex for anyone else than Jim, he is the only one who knows all the little things involved.
At least, this thread can give him some new thoughts, and maybe we get some news about the progress he made.:compute:

This is not true, in fact this forum has some of the best fans a project could have in terms of knowledge and technical expertise.

We have quite a few computer geeks out there, both in terms of hardware, software and programming. Of which some of these guys have already handed the hand of friendship to give Jim a welcome hand.

Jim,

I know its hard to get a 3rd party involved, I remember what happened all those months ago with that guy who was taking pictures of fish for you, only to find he then pulled the old "where's my cut of the money". Which I appreciate where your coming from on that point, but we could thrash out some details or even just provide you with just tools to get you started.

Any help these guys on here can give, in my opinion, would be well received.

Jim can create the fish in Lightwave and convert it to DirectX, but then he is at a roadblock -- he can't manipulate the vertices in the groups he created in Lightwave. That information is lost in the conversion to DirectX. So what he almost needs is a companion file to be produced for each fish which tells him which vertices go with which groups.

That vertices groups could be directly related to separated and individual objects. Yes, i know, Jim doesn't want separated objects. Do we already discard that solution?.

Then the problem is that the DirectX converter omits the per-vertex group information, right?. Ok, we have to add some choices in order to solve this...

Questions:

1) What's the problem with reading directly the Lightwave format? Is it possible?.

2) Is the DirectX format prepared for storing a per-vertex group information field? or does Jim need an additional companion file with this extra info?.

3) What if i write a tool that takes the Lightwave format as input, and writes that companion file?.

4) Can the object model be exported in plain text?. Could we get specifications for the Lightwave file format?.

5) Are the vertices numbered? is it really necessary?

I only understand part of it, but I love reading it... ;)

Probably because of my bad English, sorry ;)

Not likely, Sergio. More like Doc isn't the comp geek he'd like to be...

*quacking in cover*

Your English is great, Sergio. Tiny is more accurate.
Hahaha! Good one Tiny! :)

Tiny's correct, your english isn't at fault at all... Let me put it this way, I understood most of it, but couldn't do any of it... :)

It's a bit limited, but i really enjoy writing in English. And... who cares if it is not good enough... ahah!.

There you go. :TU:

Sergiales -

Thanks for perking up this thread. By they way, both you and Tiny are so skilled in English that no one here would even guess that it's not your first language.

I've got a busy day today, but tonight I'll try to post a message with more insight into the exact problem. I'm certainly not opposed to someone else coming up with a proper Lightwave converter, and I'm sure that many developers would find it useful. There are already a couple of public-domain programs out there, but they throw away most of the vital information.

The Lightwave format is binary. While not a secret format, it's not well-publicized.

I looked at the Lightwave format. I had nightmares.

I also know how meticulously you edit your DirectX files. :)

Good to see people thrashing some ideas around!

Brilliant! Keep it up!

The Lightwave (v6) file format is found here:
http://www.newtek.com/products/light...o2.html#H_file

Jim, what version of Lightwave do you have?.

I've been searching for that "vertices groups", but i haven't found them in the file specification.
Each vertex (point) has a reference in the "Polygon List", the "Vertex Mapping", and the "Discontinuous Vertex Mapping". It's specially interesting to know that the vertex mapping has a property called "PICK": "Selection set. This is a VMAP of dimension 0 that marks points for *quick selection by name* during modeling. It has no effect on the geometry of the object.".

Jim, is this property what you call "vertices group"? If not, please could you take a look at the specifications and tell me where do you think it is described?. Thanks.

I use Lightwave 8.

Yes, the Selection Sets are what are important to me. I need for these points to be retained in the .X file, in exactly the same order they were originally selected.

It's also vital that the original part names be retained (like leftfin, eye, etc.) Currently, LW to DX converters just throw everything into one mesh.

The official web site has the v6. I don't know if the geometry file specification for LW6 is equal to the used by LW8...

I'm afraid that the .x file probably cannot handle extra info (as the selections, which seems to be a Lightwave's native property). As Morgan said, perhaps that extra info has to be stored in a companion file, not in the .x file itself.

Hmmm... why?. It doesn't make much sense to me. The idea is that after you've read the .x (and the extra file containing the selection sets), you should be able to mount a structure in memory to which you could access the way you want. That is, you could move the fish eye or fins whenever you want and in the order you want, independently of how is the data stored in the file. Do you understand (more or less) what i mean?

Are your models made from one single object, or from more than one?.

The Lightwave SDK comes with a geometry file reader (probably not fully functional). I'm going to take a look at it.

The .x file format allows custom format. If you have the .x file exporter plugin source, you can add new formats that only your custom reader will need. This means a companion file is not necessary.

The things you will need are the following in the exporter:
1. Set up a header for the custom format for registering that new template.
2. Generate the custom format data.

In the reader:
1. Register the new format.
2. Parse the new format.

From what I know, the hardest part is in the exporter. The data that Jim needs has to be generated to the exact specs that he asks for. That means the info he needs has to be extracted by the exporter plugin from LightWave, the same way other info are now being extracted.

I am working on the same problem that Jim has but using 3DS MAX as the source. The easy part is that the current .x file exporter for 3DS MAX already support the info so I won't need to rewrite that part. I am only rewriting the reader to handle the new data that is being exported.

Note: I haven't played with the current LightWave exporter that Jim and/or Prolific has so I don't know how to help Jim on it yet.